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Post by catstina on Sept 11, 2011 20:44:26 GMT -5
The following post is a mishmash of questions, statements and ramblings. I'm tired and sick so I don't really feel like editing it to make it readable. I'm sorry if it's difficult to understand!
Ok, so we have established that Saxon is allergic to something that isn't Lamb and probably isn't Chicken. I'm thinking it might be beef because he never used to get much beef until I started at PD. I have been giving him bully sticks, marrow bones and other beef products to keep him busy while I work. That is really the only thing I have changed. He hasn't had a Bully Stick since the first time he was sick. He started having a rash a few weeks ago, which the vet said, may have been the first sign that he was having an allergic reaction. Is it normal for the reaction to be mild at first and just go over the edge if the dog has too much?
How do you find out what they are allergic to? For now I'm planning on just sticking to lamb based foods and treats and cutting out everything else until I figure it out.
To keep people from giving him treats and such at work I'm getting Saxon a bandana that's either going to say, "I have allergies! Please, ask my mom for a suitable treat!" or it will have "Treats" in a red circle with a slash through it and "I have allergies" underneath.
Is there anything more I should be doing?
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Post by maryellen on Sept 11, 2011 21:22:08 GMT -5
the only way to find out if he has a food allergy is to do a food allergy test.. basically one protein/one carb food for 3 months - no treats, no heartworm pills , no human food... NOTHING BUT THE ALLERGY FOOD FOR 3 MONTHS. then you slowly introduce other proteins in one at a time. during the food trial the dog gets NOTHING BUT THE ALLERGY FOOD.... NO OTHER TREATS, WHETHER ANIMAL OR FOR HUMAN CAN BE GIVEN, NO HUMAN FOOD,NOTHING BUT THE ALLERGY FOOD CAN BE GIVEN FOR THE FIRST 3 MONTHS...
Dick Van Pattens Natural Balance LID food is an allergy food- one protein/one carb.. you start out onthat, then work your way to another protein .. but if you give him anything else during the food trial you will mess it up... most dogs dont have food allergies but airborne allergies... which are easier to figure out with a simple blood test done at the vets then sent to either HESKA or ELISA for reading..
its very very important with a food trial to make sure he gets nothng but the allergy food.. and to make sure no one else gives him any food either, and that also means he cant have access to the cats food either....
is it possible he just had a few bad bully sticks that had gone bad and that is why he had a reaction? like eating bad eggs .. salmonella poisoning.. or he just had wayyyyy too many bully sticks and they didnt agree with him...
i honestly dont think he has a food allergy, cause if he was allergic to beef when you give him his heartworm pills they are all beef flavored and he would have been sick every time you gave him one...and with all the bully sticks he had if he really had a beef allergy it would have shown up with the first bully stick he got
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Post by catstina on Sept 11, 2011 22:57:25 GMT -5
I would be inclined to think it wasn't an allergy, but I just think that when you add up the incident in May ( therealpitbull.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=bethebestguardianucanbe&thread=7891&page=1), the incident with the cat food, the rash on his side and last Sunday's incident (not to mention the Vet's analysis) an allergy just makes more sense then contamination/bacteria of some kind. I haven't heard of any contamination issues with Bully Sticks or any of the other chewies/treats I've given him. It may not be beef, but it's something found in our cat's food (which Saxon can no longer reach), that he's been getting at PDog and that Tim gave him back in May. I was just thinking beef because until a few weeks ago, he hadn't gotten a bully stick or marrow bone since he was sick in May. The vet said that allergies usually don't manifest until 1 to 2 years of age, but sometimes can manifest earlier. If that is true, he may have developed his allergies more recently. That could explain why he didn't get sick for the first time until May. I'm just going off of what the vet said as I really don't know too much about allergies in dogs. Right now Saxon is on Canidae Lamb Meal and Rice formula, I just bought a big bag a little over a week ago. The treats that I have been giving him are Etta Says! 100% freeze dried lamb liver. PDog carries Wellness Simple Food Solutions for allergies. The Lamb and Rice formula contains Lamb, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Vitamin/Minerals and Ground Rice. Should I stop giving him the treats and switch him to the Wellness?
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 6:08:45 GMT -5
to do a food trial you have to do an allergy food, and nothin but an allergy food, see my post, either do a wellness allergy food or the natural balance LID. i know many people have had really good luck with the LID food..
i had an allergy dog for 9 years, then another allergy dog for 2 years..
the best thing is to see a board certifd dermatologist and have an intradermal allergy test done...
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Post by catstina on Sept 12, 2011 8:08:22 GMT -5
Okie doke! I'll switch him to the Wellness, and just bring some of his kibble to work with me for people to use as treats. That will also allow me to monitor how much food he is getting. I ordered a bandana that says "I'm Allergic!" and has a read circle with a cross through it over the word "TREATS" underneath that. I have already told all of my coworkers, but hopefully the bandana will remind them and keep customers from feeding him as well. When I have money again I'll take him to the doggy dermatologist. I've heard that the tests they do sometimes aren't accurate in dogs under a year to two years old. Do you know if there is any truth to that?
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Post by catstina on Sept 12, 2011 8:09:34 GMT -5
Should I switch him slowly, or just take him right off the Canidae? He was doing so well on the Canidae that it seems a shame to switch him, but I want to do what is best for him.
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 11:23:58 GMT -5
switch slowly, this way he wont get an upset stomach.. i highly doubt he has food allergies though.. he could have just had an infection
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 11:25:45 GMT -5
in normal dogs allergies dont show up this early, but my gsd showed allergies before she turned 2, so who knows
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Post by catstina on Sept 12, 2011 13:10:55 GMT -5
If it's a bacterial/infection thing, what can I do? Why does it keep reoccurring? How can I prevent it in the future? Could the rash be from an infection?
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 16:02:09 GMT -5
if its a bacterial infection there is not much you can do, maybe give acidophilus powder, rufus gets bacterial infections every now and then, when he does its usually from eating animal poop which he normally doesnt do but will eat rabbit poop so i just give some flagyl and wait it out lol... if saxon eats duck poop, goose poop, any type of animal poop he can get it that way too. what did the vet actually nanme the infection? if you knew the actual name that would help alot
if it keeps reoccurring then it could be from the bully sticks , sometimes if a piece gets stuck and doesnt digest it can cause an infection. try to not give him any treats like bully sticks or things of that nature and dont let any one feed him treats and see how it goes... mine dont get bully sticks,they used to then had explosive runs so i stopped
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Post by catstina on Sept 12, 2011 19:54:39 GMT -5
Ok, Attempt #2. My computer decided to have a fit and freeze up right after I typed out my long response. I have restarted my computer and now I must restart my response.
I called the vet's office the secretary read me the vet's notes. "Bacterial Overgrowth --Discuss Dietary Causes such as Allergies/Sensitivities" She said that the test they did does not determine the type of bacteria. I remember the vet saying a specific bacteria's, but he didn't write it in his notes so she had no way of knowing what it may be. During the visit he did say that it naturally occurs in the dog's stomach and it had become over grown in Saxon's case.
I watch Saxon like a hawk on walks and, while he used to like to grab banana peels and apple bits, he has never attempted to eat poop.
When I really think about it Saxon actually hasn't had a Bully Stick in a little while, last one was around the 28th of August I think. On Sat the 4th of Sept he had a Marrow bone. Brand new out of the plastic packaging. No other dogs at work that day to share it with. That night he had gas the next morning was the trip to the E-Vet.
The first time he got sick in May, I was in Finland so I didn't talk to the vet, Tim did. He does not remember much. He doesn't remember giving Saxon anything different before he got sick. He stopped giving him Bully Sticks and Bones after he got sick. He also switched his food from Wellness Chicken to Canidae Lamb and Rice at the Vet's suggestion. Saxon had very few dietary issues from then to the cat food incident on Aug 17th.
A short time after the cat food incident Saxon started the rash on his side. It started with what looked like a bug bite. By saturday the 4th it looked like several bug bites in the shape of an oval about 6" X 3" in size. I was going to take him into the vet to see what it was the next week, but ended up in the E-Vet on Sun, any way. The Vet said that it was an other symptom of Allergies.
Just now Saxon was itching himself and chewing on his feet. I took him out for potty and his stool was a bit loose and discolored. I told Tim about it and he admitted that the coffee shop owner gave Saxon two Milk Bones this morning.
Those are all the incidents that I can think of that seem related to this issue as a whole. When I look at it all written out like this, it looks like allergies to me. You know a lot more about allergies than I do, though, what does it look like to you?
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 20:17:53 GMT -5
hmmmm... if he is chewing his feet and itching it is possible its an allergy.. but i am wondering if its actually an airborne allergy to grass,weeds, stuff like that... milk bone cookies are full of crap, which explains the loose stool.. rufus gets the runs on milk bones too.. the bug bite he could have itched it to hell which made it bigger, rufus had a bug bite on his cheek that he itched and it became a 3 inch long pus filled lump on his cheek, after antibiotics he cleared up fine..
you can do a blood test for airborne allergies , it cost between $80-200 depending on the area you live in, ask the vet to draw blood and send in for airborne/environmental testing with either HESKA or ELISA ...
the marrow bone incident i am betting was due to all the marrow in the bone that saxon ate.. marrow is VERY VERY Rich, and if he ate all the marrow out of the inside of the bone he would definitely have the runs... i always scoop out the marrow as its beyond rich and definitely causes the runs in large doses lol...
i wonder if his bacteria overgrowth was candidia (spelling it wrong ).. i know most vets can test what kind of the bacteria is, as they need to know so that they treat it correctly..
i would start with the easy way, every time saxon comes inside from being in the grass wipe him down paws and all with a cool rag.. hot water opens pores so you want cool water to keep his pores closed so that IF he has airborne allergies you dont aggrevate them anymore.
when he got sick when you were in finland, tim cant remember what saxon had right to eat? is it possible tim wasnt watching him in a way and saxon got to eat some stuff he shouldnt have? since tim doesnt remember scratch that incident.....
when he was on the wellness did he itch alot more? if so, look up the ingredients in the wellness he ate, and compare them to the canidae food.. see which food has the same ingredients or not. he is either allergic to a common ingredient in the dog food /milk bone treats or its an airborne allergy for his chewing and itching.
if its a beef allergy he should show alllergy signs every time he has beef (like the heartworm pills are made of beef, does he react when he gets his heartworm/interceptor pills?)
start a diary, every day write down what he eats, and what he comes in contact with and what his reactions are.
example- woke up at 7am. saxon laying on bed sleeping/ woke him up took him out to pee . walked on grass. peed. came in and started chewing his feet... or not. came in and gave him a dog treat made of _______________. after eating it saxon chewed his feet/itched.. after eating it saxon didnt do anything...
if you make a diary of everything he does you can narrow it down..
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 20:29:38 GMT -5
this is a good article about bacterial overgrowth: www.greatdanelady.com/articles/systemic_yeast_mini_course.htmwww.thewholedog.org/ArtYeast.htmlnow it doesnt mean saxon will get very ill, or that you have to home cook his food, the links are just articles for you to read to see if its the candida yeast saxon had.. i would also call the vet back and ask the vet to tell you what bacterial overgrowth saxon had, so that you can better research it. did the vet put him on any antibiotics with this bacteria overgrowth? if so what did he give saxon? i am going to sleep now, but will be back on tomorrow after work around 5ish to respond again..
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 20:31:45 GMT -5
oh, and freeze dried lambs liver (or ANY liver for that matter is super rich like bone marrow and will cause most dogs to have the runs if they get alot of it as treats.....) liver is super rich, so if saxon is getting alot of liver treats that will explain the gas and runs.....
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Post by maryellen on Sept 12, 2011 20:32:41 GMT -5
ok going to sleep ttyl.. oh and DONT panic about this.. its all easily fixable and manageable once you figure out exactly what the culprit is...
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Post by catstina on Sept 12, 2011 21:11:53 GMT -5
Thanks so much for all your help, ME! Sleep well!
I bet the rash on his side was a bug bite that spread, that makes sense since it did clear up with his antibiotics.
I've read that the blood tests aren't always accurate, especially in younger dogs. Do you think it would be worth it to get him tested?
The bacteria could have been candida, I've definitely heard that word before. The reason he wasn't able to do the more detailed test was that by the time we got there Saxon was unable to give a stool sample, which is needed to determine the type of bacteria (according to the vet).
I'll try wiping Saxon off after walks and see if that helps with his itchiness.
There are some of the same ingredients, but none of the same proteins with his Wellness and Canidae foods. I don't remember if he was itchier on Wellness or not. It seems like such a long time ago! His poop was never really consistent on Wellness, though.
To be honest, Saxon doesn't get Heartworm pills. This probably makes me a terrible owner, but I never really thought about it. I guess I thought it was a once yearly thing, like vaccinations. I'll call my vet tomorrow to get some.
I'll start his Diary right away.
Thank you so much for the links and all the information. Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this soon and keep Saxon healthy.
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Post by catstina on Sept 13, 2011 8:23:42 GMT -5
Alright, so Saxon has an appointment on Tuesday the 20th to get a Heartworm test and preventative pills.
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Post by emilys on Sept 13, 2011 9:35:38 GMT -5
Alright, so Saxon has an appointment on Tuesday the 20th to get a Heartworm test and preventative pills. heartworm preventive is one of those "depends" issues. It's only carried by certain mosquitoes. So if you live in an area where heartworm is not very common (your vet would know) and if you have a long period of cold/snowy weather in which mosquitoes cannot survive, then you may not have to treat. Or not treat yearround. The catch is that it's dangerous to give heartworm medicine without testing for heartworms first. Depending on what your vet charges for the test and for the Heartguard, it's about the same expense to keep the dogs on all year, or just during the danger months and do the test before you start. Heartworm is treatable, but not easily, so I would at least use the Heartguard during the mosquito months.
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Post by catstina on Sept 13, 2011 9:39:25 GMT -5
The woman I spoke to said that it isn't so common in Maine, but they still recommend that dogs get Heartguard from June to November. They are going to test for heartworm first and when it comes back negative they'll give us pills. They're only $5 each, so it's not so bad. I guess I'll just get two or three of them since mosquito season is winding down.
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Post by maryellen on Sept 13, 2011 17:09:09 GMT -5
ok home and walked/fed dogs. the blood allergy test is for environmental allergies- grass, weeds, pollens, mites, etc... its actually pretty accurate. its the food blood test that ISNT accurate... the best allergy test is the intradermal, but that is a few hundred bucks and takes a few hours to do..
you should do the airborne/environmental blood test if you think its airborne allergies. if you think its just bad food you dont have to do them
honestly i dont think he has airborne allergies either, just a string of bad luck with liver, marrow, and crappy dog biscuits lol...
he could be itching due to fleas too.... if you are not treating him with flea/tick meds with all the rain we had he could either have flea bites or mosquito bites..
i would do the diary and if you want to do the airborne allergy test do that for now then see how it all goes...
wellness dog food gives 95% of dogs loose poops lol.. its the food for some reason..
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