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Post by suziriot on Apr 15, 2013 16:34:07 GMT -5
Going to read all this stuff tonight if I can find time.... so busy and so freaking exhausted.
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Post by emilys on Apr 15, 2013 16:42:00 GMT -5
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Post by catstina on Apr 15, 2013 20:06:47 GMT -5
The DNA tests are not reliable at identifying breed, especially mixed breed dogs. I was stunned when Saxon came back as a purebred SBT, I think they are getting better at identifying some pure bred dogs. Saxon is also from American lines, so I wonder if an SBT from English lines would come back as something different. Next time I get some extra funds, I plan to take the mix breed test (I did the purebred test this time) and see if Saxon still comes back as an SBT. Should be interesting to see if the results conflict.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 16, 2013 7:03:56 GMT -5
The DNA tests are def not reliable. I stand by what I said in the other thread, too - they can very easily start being used against our dogs, as well. Reading between the lines/very carefully, the very stuff that Mars is saying is pretty much Yeah, we cannot ID breed per se. Also, the reasoning they offer behind why they cannot do the APBT is pretty ridiculous. Like, come on, really?
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 16, 2013 7:05:10 GMT -5
How can we get both sides to come together with some common language?
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 16, 2013 7:54:30 GMT -5
Agree about the DNA. I find it incredible that they can't come up with a way to test for APBT.
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 16, 2013 8:55:02 GMT -5
Switching gears a bit. Something that always bothers me is this focus on the proponents of BSL and the haters instead of focusing on responsible ownership with the hopes that the haters won't have as much ammunition to use against us. RPB gets email after email from owners who want to surrender their pit bulls/ pit bull mixes common theme is dog sensitivity. Education has fallen by the wayside in my opinion. So much time is spent fighting the opposition, trying to encourage new adoption, but not much in the way of helping existing owners.
I would rather be proactive over reactive. If more owners were properly educated on what it means to be a responsible dog owner/pit bull owner then maybe RPB would not be inundated with the same types of emails over and over again.
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pitbullmamaliz
I Love RPBF!
Liz & Inara CGC, TD, TT, B.A., M.A., Ph.D., CW-SR
Posts: 360
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on Apr 16, 2013 9:32:42 GMT -5
Michele, that's why my business partner and I started our group - we knew that once people adopted or purchased a pit bull they were just kind of left hanging. So we provide a safe place for them to ask questions about anything, and we also do a lot of education about breed tendencies and positive reinforcement training. It's really fantastic to see people who used to keep their dogs loose together unsupervised start crate training. Same thing when we have people switch from prongs to Freedom Harnesses and R+ training. So many people tell us they just felt tossed aside once the dog was in their home. That's a problem.
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 16, 2013 9:39:32 GMT -5
Contrary to popular belief I do believe that pit bull ownership is different. Having owned dogs my whole life I can say that I have experienced things as a pit bull owner that I never experienced while owning other breeds. RBP always educates any potential owners on all that goes along with owning the breed.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 16, 2013 9:48:53 GMT -5
It's so not popular to say anymore, but a) RPB preaches this breed is NOT for everyone ("and no breed is!") and b) Pit Bulls require typically an experienced, or MORE experienced home. Period. I'd never say never, but most likely, we would not adopt out a Pit Bull to a first time dog home. It's possible, but unlikely.
The way RPB looks at things is that this situation ("this situation" being the one Pit Bulls are in w/r/t BSL, bad ownership, etc), is being exacerbated because people are getting Pit Bulls when they should not (sometimes because the person shouldn't have a dog at all, other times because a Pit Bull was just a bad match in general) and also because, like Liz said, they are not getting the after-care support that they need. We want to help with both of those issues and therefore help lessen the bad incidents involving these dogs. Which of course means, lessening the perceived need for BSL.
LESS people owning Pit Bulls, not more. And SUPPORT/aftercare for those who adopt Pit Bulls.
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 16, 2013 9:53:54 GMT -5
And further to Mary’s point if it looks like a pit bull or is going to be targeted as a pit bull I am going to educate as if it is one. I would much rather err on the side of caution.
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Post by Kim Wolf on Apr 16, 2013 10:28:43 GMT -5
Contrary to popular belief I do believe that pit bull ownership is different. Having owned dogs my whole life I can say that I have experienced things as a pit bull owner that I never experienced while owning other breeds. RBP always educates any potential owners on all that goes along with owning the breed. I'm asking this because I'm genuinely want to understand what you mean, not because I'm trying to be snarky or to disagree.... Are you saying that pit bulls themselves are unlike any other dog (and are therefore "different"), or are you saying that the experience of owning a targeted breed is different from the experience of owning other dogs (because of how the dogs are targeted)? Or both?
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Post by Kim Wolf on Apr 16, 2013 10:30:32 GMT -5
And further to Mary’s point if it looks like a pit bull or is going to be targeted as a pit bull I am going to educate as if it is one. I would much rather err on the side of caution. When you talk about education, do you mean educating the owner on the dog's behavior, or do you mean educating the owner on what he/she might experience as the owner of a targeted breed?
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Post by megan on Apr 16, 2013 10:41:25 GMT -5
It's so not popular to say anymore, but a) RPB preaches this breed is NOT for everyone ("and no breed is!") and b) Pit Bulls require typically an experienced, or MORE experienced home. Period. I'd never say never, but most likely, we would not adopt out a Pit Bull to a first time dog home. It's possible, but unlikely. The way RPB looks at things is that this situation ("this situation" being the one Pit Bulls are in w/r/t BSL, bad ownership, etc), is being exacerbated because people are getting Pit Bulls when they should not (sometimes because the person shouldn't have a dog at all, other times because a Pit Bull was just a bad match in general) and also because, like Liz said, they are not getting the after-care support that they need. We want to help with both of those issues and therefore help lessen the bad incidents involving these dogs. Which of course means, lessening the perceived need for BSL. LESS people owning Pit Bulls, not more. And SUPPORT/aftercare for those who adopt Pit Bulls. Honestly, I'm torn on some of this. I agree that people are getting pit bulls when they shouldn't, but the same can be said for Australian Cattle Dogs and German Shepherds, or poorly bred Labrador Retrievers.... It's important to make a good match for the breed and the dog. But I have a really hard time making a blanket statement about not adopting a Pit Bull to a first time dog owner. I was a first time dog owner and I stepped in shit with Roxy. Granted she's a mix and her behaviors could easily be related to whatever other breeds she is mixed with, but her dog-dog issues are pretty typical of a Pit Bull or AST. We got her at ~1.5 years old and at the time, she was fine with any and all dogs. A few months later, it was a different story and that was after very careful continued socialization with other dogs. I will say that I got no prep work, no information, no "what to expect," etc., and sometimes I wish I had.... But I would take her with her issues over a perfectly normal other breed of dog any day of the week. And she has some issues which are not typical of the breed, like shyness with strangers, so she is not an easy dog. I agree that most average new dog owners should not have been adopted this particular dog, but if her issues were only dog-related, prior education of the propensity for dog aggression or dog reactivity and understanding from the potential new owner of what to expect should be enough. The other rescue I work with, we do adopt Pits and other bully breed mixes to first time dog owners, but we have a very thorough process that includes an application process that discusses training, socialization, dog parks, Pit Bulls, etc., plus a home visit and follow ups / community support after adoption. We do educate about the breed and the individual dog, and of course that means dogs don't fly off the shelf like at a "here's my application gimme a dog" type rescue, but some of our first time dog owners are the best Pit Bull parents because they are completely blank slates.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 16, 2013 10:43:46 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm torn on some of this. I agree that people are getting pit bulls when they shouldn't, but the same can be said for Australian Cattle Dogs and German Shepherds, or poorly bred Labrador Retrievers.... It's important to make a good match for the breed and the dog. But I have a really hard time making a blanket statement about not adopting a Pit Bull to a first time dog owner. That's why we have no policy against it - it is case by case. But most likely, we wouldn't. And of course what you say about all breeds being matched properly is true. But RPB is a Pit Bull org, so we are talking about Pit Bulls But yeah, I hear what you are saying.
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Post by megan on Apr 16, 2013 10:46:12 GMT -5
And further to Mary’s point if it looks like a pit bull or is going to be targeted as a pit bull I am going to educate as if it is one. I would much rather err on the side of caution. When you talk about education, do you mean educating the owner on the dog's behavior, or do you mean educating the owner on what he/she might experience as the owner of a targeted breed? I think she means both, but also meaning educating the person on possible breed traits knowing that a dog targeted as a Pit Bull will get fewer chances than another breed even if they are exhibiting the same behaviors (i.e. a dog that is targeted as a Pit Bull who is showing dog aggressive behaviors will get on the shit list faster than another breed of dog showing the same dog aggressive behavior). So you educate the owner on responsible ownership and possible breed traits even if they are not visible now, as well as the dog's individual behavior. Michele can correct me if I'm interpreting that incorrectly, but that's how I took it to mean.
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 16, 2013 10:52:32 GMT -5
Thanks Megan!! I did mean both.
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Post by Kim Wolf on Apr 16, 2013 11:09:52 GMT -5
Thanks Megan!! I did mean both. Thanks to both of you for explaining For a breed rescue/organization like the Real Real Pit Bull, this seems pretty straightforward. How about for shelters -- what advice would you give them, since they're not a breed rescue? I'm trying to get input for my Expo session, and would love to hear your take on this. I think we can all agree that shelter workers/volunteers don't always have expertise in breed identification and breed traits (which is NOT to say breed identification can't be done, and NOT to say breed traits don't exist). And I think we can all agree that shelters lack the time and resources it would take to train them on these issues, not to mention the high turnover rates they often have.It'd be nice if we could that, but that's going to happen any time soon. So given that reality, do you want shelters talking to adopters about breeds in cases where they aren't sure what breed the dog is? In some ways this is a hypothetical question, since they'll probably do it anyways. But let's just imagine that you could advise them on how make adoption matches, and how to describe the dogs in their care.
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 16, 2013 11:14:43 GMT -5
Kim I think if it looks like a pit bull and is going to be targeted as a pit bull then yes they should educate about pit bull ownership and all that goes with it.
That doesn't mean that you have to be over the top and tell any potential pit bull owner that their dog is going to be uber dog aggressive it does mean however, that it is a possibility to have a dog selective /aggressive pit bull and if that is the case it can be managed. That also means any potential adopter should be aware of BSL. I fail to see where setting up the owner for success and not failure is a bad thing.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 16, 2013 11:17:02 GMT -5
In some ways this is a hypothetical question, since they'll probably do it anyways. But let's just imagine that you could advise them on how make adoption matches, and how to describe the dogs in their care. Before I dig deeper into this and take a closer look at your presentation, I'd like clarification: you do not trust shelter workers to "guess breed" and you do not want them making breed generalizations, but you are trusting them to be good at observing behavior, interpreting it, and then making descisions based only on the behavior they witness, in their placement of dogs? Is this an accurate assessment I am making? Thanks.
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