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Post by emilys on Feb 13, 2009 10:13:34 GMT -5
"the best dog you’ll ever breed may be the hardest dog you will ever finish." My SBT's breeder believes this too. One of her best dogs is so tiny... though absolutely within standard.. that she isn't even trying to get an AKC CH on her. Knowledgeable people who see this dog adore her, and she's a fantastic performance dog, but she'll never be a CH. Though the breeder has "finished" many of her dogs, she doesn't really care that much about the CH title compared to performance titles and health tests. This is one reason why breeder COE that mandate CH titles aren't necessarily the best way to judge what's breedable. Theoretically, a CH SHOULD say something about the correctness of the dog and how it meets the standard. But in my short experience in this "sport" I've learned what everyone else knows about how NOT true this is. And of COURSE I "judge shop". It's hard enough for me to find shows with other SBTs, let alone majors. I'm not going to waste my time showing under a judge known to like an incorrect physical type.
That's one
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 10:26:32 GMT -5
"the best dog you’ll ever breed may be the hardest dog you will ever finish." My SBT's breeder believes this too. One of her best dogs is so tiny... though absolutely within standard.. that she isn't even trying to get an AKC CH on her. Knowledgeable people who see this dog adore her, and she's a fantastic performance dog, but she'll never be a CH. Though the breeder has "finished" many of her dogs, she doesn't really care that much about the CH title compared to performance titles and health tests. This is one reason why breeder COE that mandate CH titles aren't necessarily the best way to judge what's breedable. Theoretically, a CH SHOULD say something about the correctness of the dog and how it meets the standard. But in my short experience in this "sport" I've learned what everyone else knows about how NOT true this is. And of COURSE I "judge shop". It's hard enough for me to find shows with other SBTs, let alone majors. I'm not going to waste my time showing under a judge known to like an incorrect physical type. That's one How DO you ever find majors in SBTs? It was sooo difficult when I was showing Luca, esp since I couldn't really travel more than a few states. And of course I too judge shopped...how can you not? I so agree with you regarding the CH. not necessarily meaning anything, although it SHOULD. I really admire the breeders that focus on the temperament and the working ability and don't just think CH. = breeding worthy. I adore the sport of showing, but I can't ignore the fact that there is SO much wrong with it. You can't necessarily use a lot of wins as a quality indicator and you really have to know your breed and be willing to do right by it while looking beyond the breed ring. AmStaff show rings often depress me. There was one dog in the ring at WKC that really stood out to me, and I believe he was given an AOM. But it was funny in a not so funny way how stark the contrast was between him and the dog took that went BOB. Also sad that there were only 2 bitches entered. I hate the focus on the boys. The girls contribute 50%, people! Oh, ps, do you have a pic of the little SBT you mention above? Would love to see a pic.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 10:41:37 GMT -5
Here's the AOM boy I liked: www.doggyworldkennel.com/index.phpNever heard of this kennel before. And coincodentally, they also have Thai Ridgebacks (which I mentioned on the OT board in the Other Breeds thread ;D )
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Post by bubsy on Feb 13, 2009 10:56:56 GMT -5
Here's the AOM boy I liked: www.doggyworldkennel.com/index.phpNever heard of this kennel before. And coincodentally, they also have Thai Ridgebacks (which I mentioned on the OT board in the Other Breeds thread ;D ) Very nice boy! It looks like they are in Thailand...pretty cool.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 13, 2009 11:12:28 GMT -5
The flews appear really incorrect to me...more noticeable in the banner at the top...anyone else think that?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 11:19:42 GMT -5
Looks like there are 3 different dogs on the banner on top. One does appear overly jowly, and not, IMO, typey at all. The dog I like is on the breed judging vid at the top of this thread if you haven't watched it yet. The dog I like is JJ. And I'm looking at the other two and just realized they are Royal Court dogs....they don't look like 'em really, I've never seen flews like that on RC dogs.
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Post by bubsy on Feb 13, 2009 11:23:42 GMT -5
Looks like there are 3 different dogs on the banner on top. One does appear overly jowly, and not, IMO, typey at all. The dog I like is on the breed judging vid at the top of this thread if you haven't watched it yet. The dog I like is JJ. And I'm looking at the other two and just realized they are Royal Court dogs....they don't look like 'em really, I've never seen flews like that on RC dogs. Wow, I didn't even notice the dogs in the banner! Yeah, there are 2 of them that are very jowly...one looks to have a Mastiff-y type head. On the far left is the really nice looking boy that was at Westminster...what a difference!
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 11:25:49 GMT -5
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Post by bubsy on Feb 13, 2009 11:31:21 GMT -5
Well it's nice to see that Jack didn't pass on his loose flews to his son, JJ JJ is a very nice boy!
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 13, 2009 11:46:27 GMT -5
JJ is in the banner as well showing loose flews, not as much as Colby (who lends waaay too much to boxer in that full face shot) and Jack...oh my...mastiffy, yes. JJ is perfect except for that darn loose mouth!
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 11:46:42 GMT -5
Sometimes the relatively minor cosmetic stuff has gotta take a backseat to structure and the overall dog
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 13, 2009 11:48:23 GMT -5
I dunno...you could make that same statement about an Amstaff with one blue eye, right?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 12:02:55 GMT -5
I dunno...you could make that same statement about an Amstaff with one blue eye, right? No, I wouldn't, blues eyes aren't cosmetic to me because of the related issue of deafness. Also the standard calls for dark eyes. So that automatically rules out blue eyes. I'm not a fan of JJ's sire's head piece, but I think his overall conformation is good and considering the pedigree he comes from, he's breeding-worthy. I'd choose to breed to a tighter-lipped bitch. I don't think there is anything wrong with JJ's head and think he is a very nice dog.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 12:07:10 GMT -5
Btw, THANKs for this awesome convo, people ;D I LOVE chatting about this stuff (so no, I'm not being argumentative, I just eat this sort of stuff up, conversationally!)
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 13, 2009 12:17:20 GMT -5
I dunno...you could make that same statement about an Amstaff with one blue eye, right? No, I wouldn't, blues eyes aren't cosmetic to me because of the related issue of deafness. I knew you'd say that. I also feel he is breeding quality and that those lips can be bred down/out but according to the Amstaff AKC standard it states: 'Lips close and even, no looseness.' and although some standards directly address flews, this breed shouldn't have flews like this in the first place. I'd prefer they amended the standard to make clear what is desired/preferential in regards to mouth. Like Boerboels indicate that the upper lips should not hang below the bottom jaw. Not that I am seeing this alot in sanctioned conformation shows but I can possibly see a trend of bigger dogs (already seeing it) with more mastiff type headpieces and loosing that tightness which makes the Amstaff so disctinct.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 12:32:34 GMT -5
I don't like excess skin or a flew-y dog - my own dog has a little more meat than I'd like LOL doG forbid mastiff-y heads become some kind of common occurance. I'm not defending a dog with a head that isn't typey, BUT I just think there are waaaaaaaay more important things then a little excess mouth or neck skin. When stuff like bad tail sets, crappy toplines, and oversized dogs get addressed, then I'll start nit-picking skin that can be tighter. LOL I'm AM big on type and I do see a lot of dogs out there losing it in the head - I just personally didn't think JJ's head was one of 'em.
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Post by bubsy on Feb 13, 2009 12:35:48 GMT -5
I agree that w/JJ the looseness is minor..breed to a girl w/tight lips and hope that the lippiness doesn't pop up. I don't know what JJ's dam looks like, but I wonder if his sire's lippiness was more of a fluke? If the Royal Court dogs aren't known for producing loose lips...it might be a fluke. I don't like Colby's head in that banner pic either, I thought Boxerish as well.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2009 12:37:21 GMT -5
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Post by maryellen on Feb 13, 2009 12:46:09 GMT -5
ooh gorgeous!!!
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Post by bubsy on Feb 13, 2009 12:49:18 GMT -5
I love Mattie! I think JJ looks very much like his grandsire, and not his sire. JJ's grandsire is very handsome, IMO.
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