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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 6, 2009 12:33:31 GMT -5
No, I havent looked on that site, I checked out all the other's that are posted here, thanks! No, I'm not in Denver, I'm in Brighton. It's just easier to put Denver when looking for a specific thing since everybody know's Denver. If I would've put Brighton people would have had no idea where I was. Thankfully Brighton does not have a ban...yet and hopefully they never will. We do drive through Denver to get to our hometown to visit friends and family. We have to be careful not to stop for anything there. As far as I know, your o.k. driving through a town or city with bsl with your dog as long as you dont stop. Ah, ok, that's what I was wondering about - driving through. Thanks for clarifying. If you still have problems locating a trainer, let me know and I'll put a post or two out on my clicker lists to try to get a referral for you.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Mar 6, 2009 16:12:33 GMT -5
Ah, ok, that's what I was wondering about - driving through. Thanks for clarifying. a little off topic, but a quick question. If you are driving through some place with a ban will they pull you over and take your dog? or is it only if you get out of the car with it?
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 6, 2009 16:26:27 GMT -5
Ah, ok, that's what I was wondering about - driving through. Thanks for clarifying. a little off topic, but a quick question. If you are driving through some place with a ban will they pull you over and take your dog? or is it only if you get out of the car with it? Snipe, can you post this (very valid) question over on the Issues board, so we don't get our topics mixed up? THANK YOUUU!!! ;D
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Mar 6, 2009 19:03:15 GMT -5
ya sry
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Mar 6, 2009 22:01:37 GMT -5
No, I havent looked on that site, I checked out all the other's that are posted here, thanks! No, I'm not in Denver, I'm in Brighton. It's just easier to put Denver when looking for a specific thing since everybody know's Denver. If I would've put Brighton people would have had no idea where I was. Thankfully Brighton does not have a ban...yet and hopefully they never will. We do drive through Denver to get to our hometown to visit friends and family. We have to be careful not to stop for anything there. As far as I know, your o.k. driving through a town or city with bsl with your dog as long as you dont stop. Ah, ok, that's what I was wondering about - driving through. Thanks for clarifying. If you still have problems locating a trainer, let me know and I'll put a post or two out on my clicker lists to try to get a referral for you. I would greatly appreciate that, I have had no luck and I have been to a million clicker training sites. Theres only a few clicker trainers in Co. that I can find good referrals for and they are all pretty far away, anywhere from 1 hr-8 hrs away and I just cant go that far on a weekly basis. Thanks so much for all your help!!
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 6, 2009 23:34:59 GMT -5
apdt.com/po/ts/us/results.aspx?zip=80601&dist=25&cert=0I don't know if any of these are close enough to you, I just pulled a Brighton, CO zip code and did a search within 25 miles. You should be able to interview any trainer to determine if the methods employed are dog-friendly and ask for references and to observe a class.
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Mar 8, 2009 1:35:44 GMT -5
apdt.com/po/ts/us/results.aspx?zip=80601&dist=25&cert=0I don't know if any of these are close enough to you, I just pulled a Brighton, CO zip code and did a search within 25 miles. You should be able to interview any trainer to determine if the methods employed are dog-friendly and ask for references and to observe a class. Thanks so much, this site helped a lot!!
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Post by tank on Mar 12, 2009 10:53:46 GMT -5
I have a clicker training question. Okay. I have began clicker training with Lucy and she is doing very well with it. I started with behaviors she already knows and use them everytime I train. My question is with training something new. I feel like sometimes when I train something new, if she doesn't completely get it right away that I need to tell her to do something she knows how to do to give her a break and motivate her to keep going. Our training sessions don't even usually last that long, maybe 3-5 minutes each session.
For an example. Yesterday I started out with her usual. Sit, lay down, shake, do a circle, crawl, beg etc. Mostly without verbal commands, clicking everything, but only treating the extra good ones (about 1/5 got a treat.) She does really well with this. So then I wanted to teach her to go lay down on her mat. She already knows "go lay down on your bed" in the bedroom, but I set up a blanket in the living room to be her place. So I was shaping her until she got completely on the mat, completely laying down. She seemed to be too excited in the middle of the shaping so I called her over CT then did some things she was more familiar with and then resumed teaching her the new command.
Is that okay to do? Or when I teach her something new, should I stick with it until she's got it. I just want to keep the rhythm of the clicks and treats going so she doesn't loose focus.
She has done really well. And it has only taken her normal 3-5 min session to learn a new behavior. She has learned and perfected crawl and go to your mat.
Oh and one more thing. I cannot get her to roll over. Any ideas on how to teach that? She won't willingly roll over even to the side, she is always laying with her back straight, except when relaxing/sleeping.
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 12, 2009 11:34:32 GMT -5
First, if you are clicking, you should ALWAYS ALWAYS follow with a treat. A study was done that showed that not treating after every click can be detrimental to the learning process AND affect the dog's understanding of what the click is. If you want to click/treat only the best responses, do that. Also, if the behavior is on cue and your dog is reliable, it's probably time to stop using the clicker for that behavior anyway - you can switch to a verbal marker (I use Yes!), which can be followed by a treat, a game, a toy, etc.
You do not have to train a new behavior in full in one session. What you should do is create a little plan of action before you start training the new behavior. Break the behavior down into teeny, tiny pieces - and teach one piece at a time. Some dogs zip right through from the first piece to the end piece, while other dogs - due to individual learning styles, or the complexity of the behavior - will need several or more sessions.
Always end on a good (reinforced!) note.
You can certainly reach a point, take a break, and then resume the training of the enw behavior.
Personally, when I am first teaching a new behavior, I like to keep the session focused JUST on the new behavior. I work in short bursts. Stop. Then resume. But I don't see a problem with sandwiching a new behavior between some already-known behaviors.
For roll over, try this:
1) Free-shaping. If you happen to see her relax to one side, click/treat.
2) Lure her onto her side from a down and once she's proficient at following the lure to her side,
3) begin to lure her head around, so that conceivably her body would eventually have to follow her head by rolling over. This is done in tiny steps. At some point it'll just kinda happen 'by accident' that she'll flop all the way over - I still remember how cute one of my dog's was when I taught him this and the first time he rolled all the way over, he seemed so suprised but pleased with himself. This was also a dog that was not fond of rolling over.
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Post by tank on Mar 12, 2009 11:49:15 GMT -5
Okay, I think I misunderstood some stuff then. when I first began, I ct everything. Then in order to make it so you don't need to treat everytime, you only reward the best behaviors? When she is learning new stuff I CT everything, but with stuff she knows, I only click when she does it and randomly treat. I have been training lately with her regular buddy biscuits broken up and save the bill jac liver treats for when people are around (high value.) So, I was trying to lessen the amount I gave her because she was taking a few seconds to chew them. Maybe I will just try it with her regular kibble and always reward during training.
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 12, 2009 11:57:07 GMT -5
Here ya go, just for a reminder : Using the Clicker for Training: 1) The clicker should be used during formal training sessions, and whenever you want to click/treat your dog for good behaviors you observe. 2) The clicker "tells" the dog when he's done the right thing. Click once after each "right" behavior. 3) Always follow the click with a food reward. 4) Initially, do not say anything to your dog. Wait until you see the behavior, then CT. 5) When you can predict the behavior, begin to use a verbal cue word (like "sit") as your dog begins to do the behavior. Then use the word immediately PRIOR to the behavior happening to GET the behavior to happen. 6) Work on the 3 D's – Duration, Distance, Distraction. 7) When your dog responds to the cue word 80% of the time (gets 8 out of 10 repetitions right), swap the clicker for your verbal release word, followed by food rewards. 8) Randomly reward! Put your dog on a variable reinforcement schedule (in other words, reward randomly - only reward some correct responses). 9) Vary your rewards (sometimes food, sometimes play, sometimes freedom, sometimes petting/attention, etc.)
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 12, 2009 12:10:19 GMT -5
One key to not develop a dog reliant on treats (will only work for food) is the variable schedule as Mary mentioned. I love analogies when explaining things (and having things explained) and Jean Donaldson explains it brilliantly in the Culture Clash.
Think of rewards as you would playing a slot machine. If you won every single time (got a treat) for pulling the slot arm after a while, it wouldn't be much fun. So the variable schedule allows you to keep the dog guessing as to when the right behaviors are going to pay off.
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Post by tank on Mar 12, 2009 12:13:57 GMT -5
So, I treat every time I click, but I don't always CT?
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 12, 2009 12:27:20 GMT -5
What are you teaching and how reliable is the behavior you are asking? If the dog understands what the click means, you can administer any reward, it doesn't have to be treats. For example, Cajun understands fully that a click (or verbal marker YES!) means he has done something right (or desired) and he will be rewarded for it. Dogs new to clicker training will usually grasp the concept very quickly with a combination of verbal/physical praise and a high value treat. The reward can be anything from a quick game of tug to physical affection to a life reward (being allowed outside, car ride, etc). Once the behavior is understood and on cue, there's no need to click it anymore unless it isn't being reinforced enough. I'm working on a "fix it" behavior for when one of Jasmine's ears gets flipped "inside out" and the behavior I want is for her to shake her head (ie: unflip the ear) on the cue "fix it". This isn't a necessary cue or behavior so I am mainly capturing so each time she shakes her head on her own, I click and she gets a treat. Eventually Miss Smarty Pants (since she's very accustomed to clicker training) will offer this behavior and continue to shake her head after the initial CT. Once she begins reliably offering the behavior, I will both anticipate her doing it on her own, say the cue to associate the behavior and CT when she does it. When I begin using the cue and she shakes her head, I will use a "that's right" verbal cue which I use "Yes!" and reward. The click has identified the behavior I want, she recognizes what earned the click, does it reliably and so I gave it a "name" (fix it) which she now understands and performs. No need to click it after that though I always use a verbal marker just to tell her she's done the right thing or that she's on the right path. Hopefully, that made sense as an example!
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Post by emilys on Mar 12, 2009 13:27:32 GMT -5
Ah, ok, that's what I was wondering about - driving through. Thanks for clarifying. If you still have problems locating a trainer, let me know and I'll put a post or two out on my clicker lists to try to get a referral for you. I would greatly appreciate that, I have had no luck and I have been to a million clicker training sites. Theres only a few clicker trainers in Co. that I can find good referrals for and they are all pretty far away, anywhere from 1 hr-8 hrs away and I just cant go that far on a weekly basis. Thanks so much for all your help!! Lauren Fox (http://www.apdt.com/conf/archive/2008/speakers/bio_fox.aspx) , near Colorado Springs.. a pit bull person; VERY highly recommended, worth the drive, or get her advice for someone closer. www.haveanicedog.org/dnn/DogTraining/tabid/197/Default.aspxThere's a group for Colorado Obedience: .com/group/ColoradoObedience/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">pets.groups..com/group/ColoradoObedience/l
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 12, 2009 14:48:22 GMT -5
The only way I use a clicker is if it is followed by a food reward. When I switch to my verbal reward marker (Yes!), I start varying the rewards. But the click always means something very specific, very predictable - "you did right, and now food's on the way". I use food because it is usually the most motivating thing for a dog. The only way I wouldn't use food after a click is if the dog *in no way, shape or form* would ever work for food. Then I would find out what the dog worked for and use *that* thing as a reinforcer. But I haven't come across that dog yet. When I first start with a dog, everything is click/treated (food), and when I stop using the clicker and start using my verbal reward marker, THAT is when I will start using a variety of things. I also never mix in verbal/physical praise with the clicker *as a rule* - the language is click/treat. It can be confusing because lots of people train using the clicker in different ways. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just means it's different. I'm pretty much a clicker purest, except for the use of lures ("real" clicker trainers just shape behaviors, and don't SAY anything or DO anything to the dog - putting the cue on the behavior after the dog is performing it reliably). And one more thing, just to confuse you even more - the click ENDS the behavior. Presumably if you are clicking, the dog completed the behavior correctly. That could mean a tiny approximation or the full, finished behavior. For instance, if I were teaching a sit-stay, the very first thing I'd do is click/treat when the butt hit the ground. After that C/T, the dog is 'done', and can get up. But eventually, I won't be clicking/treating until the dog has sat, stayed, and not moved for 60 seconds because THAT is the whole behavior (sit, stay for 60 seconds).
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Post by tank on Mar 12, 2009 14:56:24 GMT -5
Yeah, that makes sense. The thing that confused me is the randomly rewarding thing. I thought I was supposed to click everytime and randomly treat. It makes much more sense now, guess I have to start over.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 12, 2009 17:30:38 GMT -5
The only way I use a clicker is if it is followed by a food reward. When I switch to my verbal reward marker (Yes!), I start varying the rewards. Mary~ Was that comment in response to my post? Just curious because I don't want anyone to get confused who is new to clicker training. One thing I would like to clarify is that I started early out using not an actual clicker (hand-held device) but I used a verbal tongue click and do to this day. Others have used pens (the type where you depress the top which makes a clicking sound) and I also use (and have started dogs) on verbal reward "markers". The sound/word/etc marks the behavior at the point it happens and the dog makes the association with that sound as an indication that whatever behavior it did earned a reward. I agree, I always start clicker training and new dogs with food treats only as a reward. It solidifies the concept. The only exceptions I have made were dogs which were not at all food motivated but were highly toy driven and so I would use a tug or throw a ball (but only with reliable/obsessed retrievers). But that's an entirely different discussion! lol
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 12, 2009 17:56:41 GMT -5
I was just clarifying my own way of training with the clicker I know some people use it in a more broad-based way, and lots of ways work for lots of people.
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Post by tank on Mar 12, 2009 18:37:38 GMT -5
When trying to teach Lucy to roll over via shaping and the clicker today I inadvertently taught her to lay on her side and twitch her leg. It looks like she is having a seizure lol. This is going to be hard, she hates being on her back, which is why I want to teach her this, so she is more comfortable in general.
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