History - learn it, please!

[loverocksalot]

I am cowering in a corner right now. me and Rocky perfect partners he is doing the same because he is done with the weather. This would be so hard for me if we were at a round table right now. I wont be able to do much more carrying on today either as my Husband will be home from work and if he sees me sitting here on this computer still as I was at 7am he will surely think I was here all day as I mostly was. Damb SNOW!

[emilys]

I think it's perfectly normal for a dog to react to a human behaving weirdly, or to a stranger behaving aggressively towards the dog's owner. That part of "protectiveness" is, to my mind, acceptable in ANY dog whatever the breed. But there are dogs that are MEANT to be "guardians" and suspicious of ALL people; meant to NOT react in a friendly way until the dog knows the person. Doberman Pinschers, for one. When I meet a Dobe, I expect it to be watchful and I don't make overtly friendly overtures until I know the dog. When I meet a pit bull, I expect it to want to love all over me. THAT'S the correct APBT temperament, which is to assume all people love them, until the people prove otherwise (and even after the most cruel abuse, as we know, it is not at all unusual for a pit bull STILL to want to love).

Carolann: yes, there are things I am angry about. I am angry that the gamedog cultists have "owned" our breed, its history and its public image for so long. I am angry at the kind of trashing people like Mary and me took for YEARS on forums like APBT-L for trying to find a more modern way to discuss our dogs. I am angry that the only way some people STILL want to talk about our dogs is in the dogfighting context.

I think Mary is completely dead on in HER concerns about prettifying the breed and falsifying history. Her hot button is the "pit bulls were farming dogs". That, and mine is "the pit bull is the nanny dog".

We so need an honest, no-agenda, realistic and TRUE discussion of our dogs.

[loverocksalot]

Ah Ok I kind of get ya. I dont have the energy for some of the other forums. I was a member of a few I cant even remember some of the forum names. I must say I did learn things. I left the forum life for a good while eventually landing here.
And thank you because I have learned to no longer use that Nanny dog thing in discussions nor will I mention the farming dog stuff as thanks to this thread which I have found most enlightening I can get out there and get over some of my anxieties and talk with a group about the History, confidently. I will just have to get over my own issues. The second someone more dominant than I starts talking me down that they know the dogs were farming dogs will be the moment I shut down. I could use a good primal scream sometimes.
And I too think it is normal for a dog to react to humans strange behavior. And I can only hope for reaction to a stranger being aggressive towards me. Oh my gosh I fostered a dobe once who was not letting anyone in. She liked no one from the outside of the family. She hated my best friend the most. So yeah being watchful with a dobe smart.
It is quite rare that Rocky thinks someone is ODD. When he does though he will go from Im not too sure about you to quickly changing to his normal happy self. I have never figured why he finds some people odd. Anyway lets get back to the history lesson.

[suziriot]

Sorry, but I have to hijack the thread for just a moment here...

Carolann, you are awesome! I think that your journey from skeptical about the breed before adopting Rocky, to becoming an advocate and overcoming your personal anxieties in order to educate others about pit bulls is AMAZING. You ask such great questions and you are always wanting to get to the truth and learn more. Granted, I only know you through the online world... but I think it's obvious that you put as much love, care, effort, and energy into being a good mom to Rocky as I'm sure you did with your children.

There is a lot of conflicting information out there, and it can be very challenging trying to sort the reality from the myths. Again, one of the things that makes this forum so special to me is that we all care about the reality. Like Mary, I have been very concerned about the pit bull advocacy and rescue fad. There are A LOT of so-called rescuers and advocates out there who have absolutely no idea what they are doing or saying. I've used RPB and Mary's educational materials in educating my own foster homes. It's not about "I'm right and you're wrong" - it's about promoting education/information about the breed that is accurate so that people know what they are getting into when they decide to bring a pit bull into their family. I could rant about this for hours (and I have!) but I think that we are doing the right thing by trying to get our facts straight.

[dooktruck]

along the lines of apbts being trusting of people and wanting love. our current dog palace is right around a year old. our house recently got broken into and she was stuck in the crate while the burglars were inside. ever since then she barks at anyone she sees walking out on the street...through the front window. when people come over she still wants love but...she isn't very friendly anymore when people come to the door.

[loverocksalot]

Thank you Suzi. Your post touched me. And yes we do know each other only online but you sure hit the nail on the head and sometimes I feel like I have met you. Except it is a long story about being skeptical of the breed and it actually happened about the day after I brought him home from the shelter. People scared me. Long Story. Its History! Some day you will get to read my journey. Once I have the courage to share and after I fix some of the History including noting Stubby. It might be a while the anxiety thing. Especially sharing with those who I feel know way more than me on the topic of APBT. And not to mention my self conscious fear of anyone thinking I am not so intelligent. Its that disability and anxiety thing again.

Dooktruck- that must have been scary for Palace. She is young and as she matures she may become even more cautious. She is possibly fearful now. I would like to suggest posting it in the training section if you would like to work on this with her.

Emily-do you have a web page or book on History of the breed that you suggest? I am also interested in related breeds or the breeds APBT evolved from.
Sometimes all this stuff just confuses me. BTW I am still confused when we use the word Pit Bull are we including AM Staff or not? Or is that a matter of opinion.

[emilys]

Feb 1, 2011 19:34:36 GMT -5 loverocksalot said:

...
Emily-do you have a web page or book on History of the breed that you suggest? I am also interested in related breeds or the breeds APBT evolved from.
.

Diane Jessup put together a great list:
www.workingpitbull.com/bookssupplies.htm

You really have to read everything because there are lots of different perspectives. The further back in time you go, the closer you are likely to be to something that resembles reality. Keeping in mind that the earlier books are matter of fact/supportive of dogfighting and may be hard for you to read.

Whatever you do: be sure to read Stratton ( the patron saint of the gamedog cultists) but DONT LIMIT yourself to him.

You can find internet versions of some of the old, out of print books.

Also, you can look for any old books about dogs which will have sections on bulldogs and terriers.

[loverocksalot]

Funny thing I have seen the Stratton book in the stores and chose not to pick it up because it appeared to be made in the 70's. I figured it had old training lessons in there. But also probably made before all the hype. I will probably stat there as I see a few of the books Mary also recommended which the one is out of print.

[loverocksalot]

Wow I have not been on the Working Pit Bull site in ages as after being on other forums I had been steered away from it.
This line on the "you should know" is going to be my new line when someone gives me the list of what they think Rocky is. Even though I dont know what else he is but I do know he is a good part APBT
"I believe the majority of this generation of dog owners have never owned nor even seen a real pit bull due to "fad breeding" which is ruining our dogs"

[loverocksalot]

Back to research today. And now I remember the website in which I got my history info from. Among one of my favorites it is The Bulldog Information Library.
caninebreeds.bulldoginformation.com/american-pit-bull-terrier-history.html
Although reading it again I am seeing some of the things that have been pointed out. Although they do talk about the dogs use for farming it does not say that it was what they were originally used for. Also I just noticed the "pit bull type" however I think that my be used for a lack of better words to combine the amstaff and APBT and mixed breeds?
I had come across this site when looking for information on the catahoula bulldog after seeing a photo of a catahoula bulldog that looked a whole lot like Rocky. www.bulldoginformation.com/catahoula-bulldog.html
I have fascination with the catahoula and their variations
www.bulldoginformation.com/catahoula-leopard.html

[loverocksalot]

Ah more for you to read.
this is off of Diane Jessups Official Pit Bull site:
MYTH: The pit bull was bred for dog fighting only.

Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.

Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals.

After going through this page www.workingpitbull.com/history.htm an other history pages, reading what Mary has said etc. this is what I am getting out of it-
The English Bulldog we know of today is not the Bull dog in which the Pit Bull was developed from. The English Bulldog was developed later than the bull baiting period. Where if you look at some of those old photos of "bull dogs" they have striking resemblance to pit bulls. I am gathering that very little changes were made in the breeding of the Pit Bull. Where the English Bull Dog had way more changes and does not look anything like the "bull Dog" of Middle ages.
So here is where I get lost When did the "Bull Dog" become a "Pit Bull" and how long did it take to actually phase out the original "Bull Dog" bloodlines. Or are they what became American Bulldog?
This is making my head spin. However I just learned from that website why the Boston could have been mistaken for a pit bull in the older photos.
MYTH: Boston terriers and boxers are not related to pit bulls.

Fact: The Boston "bull" terrier was developed toward the end of the nineteenth century in the Boston area (a Mecca for dog fighters at that time) from pit dogs bred to small terriers - with a dash of the then extremely popular pug which gave the breed its screw tail. The boxer was developed at the same time, on the continent, by infusions of European baiting breeds with the English show-type bulldog. The show bulldog was just being developed at that time, and it was very popular with show folks both in the UK and on the continent. Show bulldog blood gave the boxer its deformed nose - a nose never found on real working bulldogs.

[maryellen]

CA if you research all dog breeds as far back as possible you will see that the dogs of today dont really look anything like the dogs from 200 years ago. its a fascinating history to see how they changed over the years appearance wise.. i remember seeing somewhere maybe on another forum that a link was shown with skull shapes of dogs from way back when compared to dog skulls today of some breeds and how much they changed with breeding

[emilys]

well, remember that in England in the mid-1880's, they were creating the "bull terrier" and the dog that came to be called the "staffordshire bull terrier" both as fighting dogs, rat-pitting dogs and "gentleman's companions" (a euphemism for a dog that could test "mine is bigger than yours" ego-trips), The illustration of the Bill Skyes' dog in Oliver Twist is clearly a type of bull/terrier, IMO. The English bull dog, having lost its "job" was taken over by the show crowd that developed in the mid-late 19th century, and you can see from photo's its gradual change from working dog to the disgusting slug it is today. The American bulldog is an entirely separate breed from the English bulldog, obviously.. it began and remained as a working dog rather than going towards the show/pet side. History shows us that dogs that lose their jobs and become show/pet almost always have grotesque and unhealthy changes in conformation and temperament (which is one reason some people scorn the AKC AmStaff). Personally I disagree that boxers are related in any meaningful way to the pit bull terriers... because they have no terrier component. Boxers ARE molossers; pit bull terriers are not. Jessup is one who believe that there is little (she used to say NONE) terrier component in the APBT... I just think she's flat out wrong

[loverocksalot]

Yes it is very fascinating but the artwork of dogs of ancient times that I cam across I actually found fascinating how some look similar to breeds of today. Some do not look anything like dogs of today but a good amount look very much like todays sight hounds.
Found this site of artwork. dreamdogsart.typepad.com/art/dogs-in-art-film-the-art-.html
I gather Some of the working breeds were not messed with too much before the show ring?
Ok and not done reading this one yet but it seems it is going to explain where I am a bit confused.
www.bulldoginformation.com/bull-and-terrier-breeds.html and now after skimming it I am interested in learning more about the extinct Scottish dog called the blue paul terrier

[loverocksalot]

Emily-you answered my questions while I was typing them like the working dog show dog thing.

[emilys]

I definitely look at contemporaneous artwork to help me understand dogs. I have all Secord books, and they show MANY bull/terrier type dogs. But you have to take some of the earlier paintings/drawings/engravings (pre 1800 especially) with some grains of salt: drafting skills were not too great IRT to animals and sometimes they just don't look much like animals!

[emilys]

and p.s. the obsession with "breeds" is a completely modern notion, starting in the Victorian era. Before the mid-1800, dogs were "types" not "breeds"

[loverocksalot]

HA was reading The Lost Dogs last night, got into the history. It was pretty well done except it did note Sgt Stubby which on that thread we are debating that he might be an Old Boston. I am going back to the Sgt Stubby thread about it.

[RealPitBull]

Feb 1, 2011 13:12:47 GMT -5 loverocksalot said:

This topic I am very interested in and even though I should be doing other things I could not help but to take a break and come back to see what Mary has to say.
I still have to read the the link I posted.
I totally get ya Mary and I am glad you cleared it up. As I was under the impression of the Bull Baiting farm dog what the original pit bull was. Reading through some of the material I now see it as this. The original bull baiting bull dog and dogs of ancient times that resemble the APBT are what the breeders evolved our beloved breed from. Making for a very human friendly tenacious loyal dog that would do what is asked of him. Hector the vick dog is a prime example of a dog who did what was asked of him to do. The APBT that I own Loves to work. Although not at all Dog Aggressive and just an all around perfect family dog (for my family) will do about anything for me that is work. Even things he is a little nervous about. If I (sorry for lack of better word) raised him to work for me as a fighter and forced him, trained him and rewarded him for his efforts to fight, is it (modified as is it was reversed) very likely that he could be a very different dog. It is also likely that he would still be able to come home and be a family dog. It is sickening to even think about. Sad but true. (modify- just want to express that this was meant to be hypothetical curiosity about what a dogs life might be in a different environment) Does that make sense? Although I could never ever picture Rocky as a fighter since he is such a damb wusy. I have witnessed his desire to please me in his tricks, in the games we play, when he checks the yard and finds an intruder (cat), how he will look at me for acceptance of his barking at the possible intruder.
As much as I am sickened by dog fighting. I too understand the it was the way it was and it was normal and thou today illegal it is still the way it is and normal in some cultures. Being brought up in it as a child where highly respected great grandpa etc were dogfighters. What I am so disturbed about in fighters such as the Michael Vick crew is how they eliminated the dogs who did not have what it takes. That is a whole different sociopolitical issue as far as I am concerned.
Now here goes my DISCLAIMER- I am Opposed to dog fighting. It is a sickening thing that I can not even watch a second of or stand to see photos.
But I am ready to accept it is what my favorite breed of dog was bred for. And I have to accept that if it were not for dog fighting, I would not be blessed with the most amazing dog one could ever be so lucky to have added to their family. I know that no other breed could give me what Rocky has to share. I just pray for the world to realize that this breed can have many purposes and so dream of an end to dog fighting.
Here is a clip from a PBS show that is long but shows Hector and how he went from fighter to coexisting in a home full of pets. www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/video/video-the-dogs-are-alright-the-vick-dogs-make-a-comeback/6676/
Mary I love all you are about! Just so you all know I have respected Mary's opinion for many years. I fell upon a website of hers that I suppose was RPB at the time she had a question for free training and advice on the APBT. She helped me through some minor issues I was having and I am so lucky to have found her as well as some other people who are now members of this forum. It is so ironic that they are in my area within a reasonable distance.
Ok now I must get back to my chores.

OK, I'm finally getting back to this thread. Carolann, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject and for being open to learning and for an all around great conversation I totally understand all your points above.

Anyway, I'm glad you are here, glad you're part of RPBF, and I hope as time goes on, you can get more involved with RPB (events, etc. - I'm happy you are coming on Saturday!!!)

[RealPitBull]

Feb 1, 2011 15:14:01 GMT -5 Karen said:

I have alway hated dog fighting and do not in any way support it but the dogs are always the ones to pay in the end no matter what. i'm not picking on you at all I have just read this same type of post over and over and then when the reality of a huge mess happens it scares the person and they look at their dog so differently. If you look at him a little differently now as a protection for him against danger to him, you will be able to not have any bad experiences.

As for the wary of strangers, watch that. I have a couple who are like that and for reasons taught to them by experience. Probably scent related, pot and other chemical cocktails alter the human scent. I am always watching for them around people I even think have imbibed. They are dogs and dogs can't make rational to us decisions. They make choices that are good for a dog and defend the pack (you) or den (house). Needless to say they are put up if we have company. Are they normal dogs? Yeah. They aren't 100% rock solid pit bulls either but my responsibility. Both are altered.

I hope you don't take my post the wrong way.

I think the above point is REALLY good: know the POTENTIAL so if/when an "incident" occurs (because they do occur, to even the best and most paranoid of us), you (generic "you", no one in particular) won't have the rose colored glasses ripped off and the image of your "perfect dog" shattered and destroyed forever.

My two boys lived harmoniously together for probably 6 or 7 years before a horrendous fight. I had to stop all loose, simultaneous yard time from then on out unless I was seriously up both their butts.

If you KNOW your breed, understand that a dog isn't "dog-aggressive/not dog-aggressive", but rather this is behavior that can pop up when you least expect it because it is NORMAL dog behavior IN GENERAL, and also take necessary precautions to keep your dogs safe, you will be far ahead in the long run in terms of ensuring peaceful interactions between your dogs and other dogs. And you also need to know and keep in mind that dogs bred for specific functions tend to lean towards exhibiting behavioral traits that allowed them to excel at those specific functions.......

A side effect I am seeing, too, of the revised history of the breed, is that nice dogs in rescue settings are being murdered for exhibiting some normal dog-sensitivity issues. Yes, I use the word murdered because I find it abhorrant that typical, stable, sound APBTs are being euthanized because they are now apparently not acceptable, and it is just so much easier to place the supposed "cold" dogs.

(Sending Pit Bulls out into the world under the guise that they are "cold" i.e. will not show dog-aggression and are fine with other dogs is a disaster waiting to happen. That's another subject.....I do NOT advocate placing dogs with serious dog-directed aggression issues, nor would I advocate placing a dog that has seriously injured another dog. But dogs that are actually showing NORMAL dog-sensitivity, even dogs that should really only go to only-dog homes, is pretty much par for the course when you are rescuing this breed!!!!!!!!)

I still remember a "big name" rescue posting a blog about this super-great Pit Bull that had a stellar temperament with people, but due to an accidental kennel fight, the dog had to be euth'd. I still get sick to my stomach a lil bit when I recall reading it. It was disgusting.

Anyway. I just wanted to say that I do know Rocky and Carolann in real life and Carolann is a very responsible parent who is constantly looking to learn. And Rocky is a really great dog