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Post by AmyJo27 on Apr 21, 2008 10:52:32 GMT -5
One of my friends was using Cesars methods with a "Red-Zone" dog. And I guess she took it down or "Striked" it and it attacked her! Think of it this way: If the dogs being dominate and you are trying to take that dominance away, you are challenging the dog! What do they do in the wild if 2 alpha males cahllenge each other: FIGHT! She got 11 stiches to her face and 8 to her arm!!! Maybe that will change some minds!
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 21, 2008 12:08:42 GMT -5
One of my friends was using Cesars methods with a "Red-Zone" dog. And I guess she took it down or "Striked" it and it attacked her! Think of it this way: If the dogs being dominate and you are trying to take that dominance away, you are challenging the dog! What do they do in the wild if 2 alpha males cahllenge each other: FIGHT! She got 11 stiches to her face and 8 to her arm!!! Maybe that will change some minds! That's AWFUL but not uncommon. Cesar does this type of thing day in and day out, he KNOWS how to use the technique. And even HE still gets bitten! So imagine a dog owner deciding to try this on their dog. Pretty dangerous. Aggression begets aggression. And when a dog feels like it is fighting for its life, it very well may decide to fight if flight is not an option.
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Post by AmyJo27 on Apr 21, 2008 19:51:29 GMT -5
Yea, I didnt know she was even using Cesars methods until I found out she went to the emergency room! Shes doing better now but it looks painful!
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 20:24:28 GMT -5
I definitely don't want her to ever associate anything with pain at my hands, or at anyone's! I think that with my help (reassurance), she was able to calm herself and try to analyze the situation better (course we'll never know!).
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 29, 2008 7:22:14 GMT -5
I attended an interesting seminar on Sunday about canine aggression. The presenter, Nancy Williams, is doing some awesome research originally funded by the Nat'l Institute of Health. She is testing the stress caused in dogs by different training techniques. The alpha roll (Millan's favorite!) has been shown to cause some severe stress in dogs and create MORE aggression. Techniques like the alpha roll cause a downward spiral of behavior and IMO are borderline abusive, if not outright abuse.
It is my hope that as the work Williams is doing gains momentum and support, and science is used to tested hypothoses, techniques like those used by Millan will be exposed for the painful, stressful, unneeded and abusive things they are and training that works to decrease stress, eliminate pain, and create a happy dog will rule the day.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 29, 2008 11:14:44 GMT -5
I'm not surprised because I've heard a lot of people criticize the alpha roll. And for me I just don't get it, if I roll my dog over she expects a belly rub =). I think we should try to give our dogs the benefit of the doubt before trying to "dominate" them. Is this sort of new? I always thought of a dog as a buddy and not a threat to manhood or womanhood that needs to be "dominated". She does what I say because, first, I'm the person that she relies on, and second, because she loves and trusts me (or maybe the other way around).
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jenn
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Post by jenn on Apr 30, 2008 15:53:02 GMT -5
Wow, theres loads of info in the links you provided Mary. Thanks!
Yesterday I was really confused as to why people were opposed to Ceasers training methods. The way I saw it was that Ceaser is a savior in many cases because some of these dogs are just one incident away from being put down.
I can see, now, the opposite side of the arguement. But I still can't make him out to be bad. If he was forcing these training techniques on dogs who needed only to be taught how to walk properly on a leash, then yeah ceaser would be overdoing it. But for a powerful dog, lets say a pit, who has a nasty aggresssion issue with skate boards, is it still wrong for Ceaser to alpha roll it? Or force the dog to be calm around a skateboard? If Ceaser doesn't force the dog into submissiveness there is a chance of a kid getting bitten. I personally think his "outdated methods" are better than another report in the newspaper about a "pit bull" attacking a kid. Right?
I do understand that there are better ways that are out there, ways to use only positive and no negative training, but those methods take a while. The owners that seek ceasers help are usually short on time or have no time. So ceasers way may be the only way for these dogs.
As for ceaser being the face of dog training when someone else has a better education and history of dog behavior and training under their belt, I can understand the anger and confusion about that. Its like being the next one up for promotion at the office and some newbie comes in and gets the postion you wanted. Simply put....that's not cool.
Once again, the links hold a lot of info and I will be sure to reread them since I read them rather quickly and didn't have time to commit as much to memory as I'd have liked.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 30, 2008 17:24:55 GMT -5
Hey Jenn, I'm glad you found some of this stuff useful I do hope you have some time to eventually read through the material presented in full - because it's interesting and beneficial for everyone! I just wanted to correct a common misconception about Cesar: the misconception usually goes something like this: "Positive/gentle techniques may be ok for teaching some dogs, but Millan is working with big, powerful aggressive dogs that need to be dominated!" There are a few things that you need to be aware of: 1) The methods Millan use actually have been proven by SCIENCE to make aggression WORSE in many cases. 2) MANY MANY trainers, behaviorists, and vets use force-free, painless techniques to heal aggression every day! 3) I specialize in Pit Bulls - they are practically all I work with. I do NOT use alpha rolls, choke chains or prong collars. I do not hurt dogs, scare them, or 'make' them do anything. I TEACH them new behavior. Millan's method is about suppressing unwanted behavior - note the word 'suppress'; the behavior doesn't 'go away', the dog is just forced to hide it for a while. Very often that behavior will reappear worse than ever in an unpredictable way. (I'm speaking from experience as - guess what! - I used to train EXACTLY the way Millan does! And as a 'btw', I have been training dogs for 20+ years) 4) The types of dogs Millan works with are the same types of dogs trainers across the country work with every day!!! I haven't seen ANY dog on his program that wasn't presenting a typical behavior issue. Some of the stories on Millan's show sound pretty sensationalistic, but in all actuality, are mostly pretty mundane trainer type stuff. Now, I recently attended a seminar by a renowned aggression expert and behaviorist and the video she showed of dogs she's worked with would probably have made Millan run for the hills. If Millan had tried to alpha roll any of these dogs, he'd have had his face ripped off. (Ironically, lots of the dogs on the video were rejects from trainers who use techniques that Millan uses.) If you are curious to know more about the behaviorist I'm talking about, visit her site at: www.dogswithissues.com (btw, she was on the task force that evaluated the Michael Vick Pit Bulls) 5) Millan isn't even close to the 'only option' for the dogs he works with. His techniques aren't considered a 'last resort' - they are considered dangerous and ill-advised by many professionals in the fields of animal training and behavior.
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Post by bullymommy25 on May 2, 2008 19:43:23 GMT -5
many dogs are one step away from people putting them dog because humans STINK and will put the dog to death if he pees on the carpet too many times-just thought i'd vent about that. you don't kill your family members because the post man is nervous about them.
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pitbullmamaliz
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on May 2, 2008 20:32:22 GMT -5
Cesar does a great job in letting people know that all pit bulls are not evil child killers, HOWEVER, he also is horrible for the breed in that he makes people think they can "train away" dog aggression.
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paulj
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Post by paulj on May 6, 2008 18:36:39 GMT -5
a question for pitbullmamaliz are you saying that if they are aggressive towards other dogs you cant change that ? and this isnt me setting you up to knock you down it is a genuine question as i have this problem with my bitch. thanks paul
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pitbullmamaliz
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on May 7, 2008 17:29:18 GMT -5
This breed has been bred for how many generations for dog aggression? It's an inborn trait. It can be managed, absolutely, but Cesar leads John Q Public to believe that with a couple alpha rolls any pit bull can be tossed into a pack and be expected to behave. Not so. My female is dog-reactive - she's okay on leash, but would I ever let her off-leash around other dogs? Not a chance. It's just who she is. Her mother was confiscated from a fighting ring, so my girl was bred specifically to fight.
I fully expect all pit owners to make a concerted effort to train their dog to be manageable on leash. Am I ever going to berate them for having a pit that doesn't like other dogs though? No way.
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paulj
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Post by paulj on May 8, 2008 7:07:36 GMT -5
oh right i cant let my bitch off either how do you make sure yours get enough excersise because i cant let her off to run and it doesnt seem to make much difference how much i walk her she just doesnt get worn out at alli apologise for any slang you dont understand im english
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pitbullmamaliz
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Liz & Inara CGC, TD, TT, B.A., M.A., Ph.D., CW-SR
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on May 11, 2008 21:46:11 GMT -5
I go to enclosed tennis courts (great for her nails), and I also made a 50 foot lead. Since I made it, I chose the hardware I wanted on there so I know it's strong. I just make sure there are no dogs anywhere near when I put her on it.
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paulj
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Post by paulj on May 12, 2008 6:41:45 GMT -5
that is a very ghood idea i have some tennis courts near me but have never thought of taking her there i think for the long lead ill have to buy 1 as i dont think i could trust 1 i had made
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jenn
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Post by jenn on May 17, 2008 2:32:30 GMT -5
Well you do have a solid base of experience and knowledge on your hand Mary, and I only have 4 months of experience. Thanks for pointing out things that I wasn't aware of such as the sudden relapses in the dogs he has handled among other things.
I trained tyler not to pull on the leash using the jerking method I've seen on cesar. Before using that I did try the verbal commands such as "ah ah" a stern "no" and even the sharp "shh" sound Cesar does but none of that worked. So I tried distracting her with a toy as I read on a website and that sent her into a playful mode which wasn't helping either. I tried to run with her to tire her out so at the end of our run we could walk home without pulling...I tried that for two weeks to no avail. But when I used the jerking method she stoped pulling completely after about three walks.
I made sure to never jerk the leash to hurt her, only to try and have her associate pulling the leash with a bad reaction. Is my training tyler with the leash jerk going to affect her badly in any way?
Also since we have eden(who walks worse on a leash than tyler did) how do I train her to walk nicely with out the leash jerking? I have tried the verbal commands for about a week now and they aren't working. Mind you, Eden is not my dog, IM just puppysitting her for a while.
I know I won't be attempting the leash jerk with her for several reason but I have run out of ideas to use. I would really love to walk both tyler and eden at the same time and not have to deal with the pulling so I can actually enjoy our walks again. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks
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paulj
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Post by paulj on May 17, 2008 11:19:35 GMT -5
the ways i stopped my dog from [pulling was every time she started to pull i would stop and make her sit for a few seconds it did get abit annoying but it did work after a few walks
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Post by OurPack on May 17, 2008 14:56:57 GMT -5
Valliesong, You asked about what to do when your dog hits the red zone. I have dogs in my class every week that start out in the "red zone". Some of them have been to a few trainers already. Some can't get anywhere near the class at first. Most all of these dogs are able to sit in the circle with the other dogs and be calm around them quickly. I like Mary learned to train with the jerk method. I began to see fear installed into the dogs. Some could take and some couldn't. Then I started using the more positive methods. This actually helped in fearful situations. The red zone we're talking about is usually, not always, but most often a fear based behavior. Jerking the dog at that time will serve the fear. I've seen owners get bit by their own dogs as a result of this. Also, the red zone you see often is just LOUD and dramatic leash reactivity and not necessarily dog aggression if your dog is displaying this behavior while confined by a window fence or a leash. See www.ourpack.org/agressreactivity.html This is also a behavior based on insecurity conditioned into the dog due to urban living through leashes, fences, car windows etc. This is why I think there shouldn't be a one size fits all for any behavior even in the red zone. Certainly jerking techniques should not be used to teach things like basic obedience skills. I'm not saying that if ALL else has failed and ALL else has been tried that one can think outside the box and really go for some aversives to save a dog's life. So I'm not saying never, that cuts down on my toolbox to save a dog. I've done it but it's not my chronic mode of operation nowadays at there's fun and creative ways to help dogs. Positive leadership is replacing the alpha roll now days. Your dog knows your in charge when you have the cheese! Gosh, you've got the resources. When he has to sit for his dinner he knows who's in charge in a positive way and he's WILLING to do it without his tail between his legs. Marthina McClay, CPDT CGC Evaluator Animal Behavior College Mentor Trainer Therapy Dog Tester/Observer www.ourpack.org
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Post by OurPack on May 17, 2008 15:01:05 GMT -5
I see the link for Leash Reactivity didn't work above. Try going to www.ourpack.org and go the the purple left column down to the middle where it says, "Dog Aggression vs Leash Reactivity". Hope this helps guys!
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Post by valliesong on May 17, 2008 18:36:23 GMT -5
It wasn't me who asked, but good info anyway!
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