akc old vs new

[maryellen]

does anyone have that link that shows how dogs looked before the akc got involved in them? i know its somewhere, but cant find the link..
it shows dog skulls before the akc got involved and dog skulls/bodies after

[bubsy]

Hmm, wasn't that Terrierman's blog? I think it was Bulldog skulls?

[maryellen]

yep found them thanks!

[bubsy]

Cool, was just about to post the link. Here it is in case anyone else wants to read. www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

[odnarb]

One thing to remember is that AKC had nothing to do with the decline of breeds.

Looking for a field bred Lab? It's probably AKC registered. Looking for a working bred GSD? In this country they usually come with AKC papers. My dark red working bred Malinois with enormous Yoda-like ears was AKC registered.

Registries don't ruin breeds. Breeders ruin breeds.

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[catstina]

So true, Aimee!

[johnr]

Jan 28, 2012 20:31:28 GMT -5 odnarb said:

One thing to remember is that AKC had nothing to do with the decline of breeds.

Looking for a field bred Lab? It's probably AKC registered. Looking for a working bred GSD? In this country they usually come with AKC papers. My dark red working bred Malinois with enormous Yoda-like ears was AKC registered.

Registries don't ruin breeds. Breeders ruin breeds.

Sent from my DROIDX using ProBoards

Yes, but when those breeders are rewarded for their efforts by show judges with ribbons and trophies and titles, the registry running those shows can't pretend it has nothing to do with the phenomenon.

[odnarb]

Jan 28, 2012 21:04:01 GMT -5 johnr said:

Yes, but when those breeders are rewarded for their efforts by show judges with ribbons and trophies and titles, the registry running those shows can't pretend it has nothing to do with the phenomenon.

Even still, the judges can only put up what is presented to them, and often times what is being presented to them isn't what meets the breed standard.

Example, here is the GSD that won BOB at Westminster last year.



But, this is the illustration that is in the AKC parent breed club's judge's education packet...



This illustration is even more moderate than what you see in the German breed ring! If I was going to play "Guess the bloodline" on that illustration, I'd pick Czech working lines. The AKC breed standard calls for this moderate dog, but you won't see people showing dogs that look like that. The breeders have taken the breed to extremes, not the AKC.

[johnr]

Well, then maybe AKC should just call off their dog shows. How events where dogs are graded for how well they meet the standard. Don't give out bragging rights to anyone who isn't producing truly excellent animals. Focus more on bloodline achievement than individual, often very young dogs who, for all we know, will all be dead of cancer at age five. As long as AKC is sanctioning the shows, the judges, registering the dogs and handing out the goodies as rewards, there is NO WAY they can say they are just innocent bystanders. DQ the whole field if you need to make a point. But the AKC makes $$$$ off of these shows and the registrations of pups who are less and less like their ancestors. Yep, follow the money.

[odnarb]

It's a double edged sword. At a French Ring tournament, I was cringing at the horrific structure of a lot of the dogs. Sure, they were still getting up and over the palisade, but how much easier would it be had they been built correctly? The breeder of my Malinois was one of the few that seemed to get structure. Harry's mother, who is titled in multiple venues, entered her first agility trial at 12yo earlier this year. I doubt that most of those dogs that were going up and over the palisade at 2-3 years were going to be in as good of shape as Harry's mom was at 12.

You can do it like the German SV system, which requires the dog be Schutzhund titled before getting top conformation ratings. In order to be shown, the dogs must attain at least a SchH1 for their first Sieger show, and I am thinking SchHIII for their second. They must complete an endurance test, and perform a protection routine at the show to even be considered for moving on. Dogs that score poorly in protection often get pulled at this point as they get moved to the end of the line anyway. I don't think the bitches have the same regulations, though, as when you look at those pedigrees you see mostly SchHIII males and SchHI females. But even then, these aren't usually the best Schutzhund dogs, but they squeak by.

In theory, it seems like the perfect compromise, but even those German lines are getting extreme in a different way. This page shows both American and German show lines.

wildhauskennels.com/gsdtypes.htm

Even the show ADBA APBTs are getting more and more extreme. The whippety little things that you see prancing around those rings sure don't look like the pics of the dogs of old.

Then when you get into working/sporting lines, you start to find the dogs with poor structure as I mentioned above, as well as temperament that is getting more and more extreme as these monsters that are difficult or impossible to live with are so dynamic to watch and score highly in sporting events.

What the world needs is more breeders who truly breed to better the breed rather than for glory. If we had that, show and working wouldn't matter. We would just have correct, quality dogs.

[maryellen]

and if the akc didnt take every breeders registration that would help too, my last gsd was "akc" and she should have never been born, let alone her parents registered akc... too many genetic flaws that should have never been accepted as breeding dogs .... and yes, if the breeders who truly care to breed and the ones who dont to back out that would be the best...

[johnr]

Well, if conformation actually meant what it is SUPPOSED to mean, ie how animals are put together functionally, that would be one thing. But it was the "conformation" ring that produced the English Bulldogs and Bull Terriers that the article cited. And there's no better test for getting over obstacles, etc, than one in which you have to get over obstacles!

But yes, all selective breeding can produce undesirable extremes. I recall a column in Full Cry magazine in which an author bemoaned the fact that competitions that test for drive have produced dogs so driven that they are useless for actual hunting as they bolt ahead and end up "in the next county" while you trudge on haplessly behind. This may work for people who put radio collars on dogs, set them loose and then helicopter in for the kill the next day or whatever. But for normal weekend hunters, this is insanity. (I'm no hunter. Never was. Never will be. But I recommend perusing an issue of two of Full Cry for a sense of what people who work their dogs feel about them, know about them, etc.)

[johnr]

As for ADBA, rangy dogs have always been part of APBT legacy, but I think ADBA breeders have gone heavily one way in reaction to how AmStaffs and SBTs and even a lot of UKC APBTS have been bred for a clunky lunker look. In all cases, it's people guessing what a fighting dog should look like, which is really pretty silly. ADBA dogs are following AmStaffs and UKC APBTS in the direction of ever larger, however. I've seen 30-4-lb dogs at ADBA events. I haven't seen them win. Not sure if AADR is still operating, but they arose largely as a place where smaller APBTs would be favored.

[odnarb]

There is rangy, and there is extreme. In addition to lousy structure, many of the dogs being exhibited now give no impression of strength. Things have changed a lot in the last 10 years or so. Now there is yet another strain of extreme show dog, but they are heading in the other direction.

[johnr]

Jan 29, 2012 16:07:25 GMT -5 odnarb said:

There is rangy, and there is extreme. In addition to lousy structure, many of the dogs being exhibited now give no impression of strength. Things have changed a lot in the last 10 years or so. Now there is yet another strain of extreme show dog, but they are heading in the other direction.

The last ADBA show I was at was a fun show in the early 2000s that several Pit Bulls from AAC went to and several won some ribbons! It was fun. Before that, we gotta be talking the late 90s, since my work schedule since the beginning of 2000 has made weekend excursions difficult to impossible. So yeah, I can readily believe that in the meantime, yet another gang of show breeders are producing yet another physical caricature of a historic breed.

[odnarb]

Jan 29, 2012 16:33:44 GMT -5 johnr said:

The last ADBA show I was at was a fun show in the early 2000s that several Pit Bulls from AAC went to and several won some ribbons! It was fun. Before that, we gotta be talking the late 90s, since my work schedule since the beginning of 2000 has made weekend excursions difficult to impossible. So yeah, I can readily believe that in the meantime, yet another gang of show breeders are producing yet another physical caricature of a historic breed.

I've stolen these from various threads from other boards of fairly recent shows, or had them sent by friends. I apologize to anybody who I've stolen them from, I'm only using them as examples. And sorry, some of the pics are small after cropping out humans. But anyway, I'm seeing more and more dogs that look like these that are winning and being drooled over by the current ADBA show crowd and dogman fanboys.













All of these pictures were taken at ADBA shows. None of these dogs give me the impression of a powerful gladiator. And, a lot of them just have terrible structure.

I also came across this link to a page of official photographs from the 2011 ADBA nationals. It used to be that I liked a lot of dogs that I saw at ADBA shows. Now, not so much.

dalineb.smugmug.com/Category/2011-ADBA-NATIONALS-PUPPY/19338272_fQPFpg#!i=1517934798&k=34dbvmm

[emilys]

I would bet $$$$ that several of those ADBA dogs have some other breed in the woodshed...

[melonie]

Ok that first dog, looks almost like my very mixed breed Ellie (the black dog)

The rescue claimed she is lab/pit bull. but she is more likely coonhound/pit bull as she has a lot of things I tend to see in my sisters red bone coonhound, the build, she is lean, long legged, and long bodied, the boo instead of bark... ok she barks, but she boo's more, the nose is at finding stuff you really don't want her to find. I would almost be willing to say she likely something other than pit bull, because I see so very little pit bull traits in her.

It surprises me that any of those dogs are considered pure bred. I would have thought they were all mixed breed.

[bubsy]

I don't find any of those dogs attractive...apologies to their owners, etc. I've never been a huge fan of the ADBA type, but I can appreciate their qualities...not on those dogs, though.

[johnr]

Well, when you hang around lunky AmStaffs and SBTs long enough, rangy dogs may look wrong, but they aren't.