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Post by michele5611 on Jun 28, 2013 13:31:00 GMT -5
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 28, 2013 14:00:37 GMT -5
"I am by no means a breed expert, never claimed to be, and don’t really care to be one either."
Then sit down and shut up.
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perseus
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Post by perseus on Jun 28, 2013 14:08:06 GMT -5
"I am by no means a breed expert, never claimed to be, and don’t really care to be one either."Then sit down and shut up. I was so hoping you were going to weigh in on this - better than expected. Love it!
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 28, 2013 14:10:48 GMT -5
^ Awesome quote. Almost as good as the quote I just read by a Pit Bull advocate who says she never tells people she HAS a Pit Bull when doing advocacy work because it makes you a better advocate that way.
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Post by michele5611 on Jun 28, 2013 14:13:29 GMT -5
This is why we are facing an uphill battle.
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perseus
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Post by perseus on Jun 28, 2013 14:15:43 GMT -5
^ Awesome quote. Almost as good as the quote I just read by a Pit Bull advocate who says she never tells people she HAS a Pit Bull when doing advocacy work because it makes you a better advocate that way. ok my head is still spinning from that one. I mean I know the guy means well and has some good things to say. Obviously he has thought a lot about it and loves the dogs. He hasn't followed the thread far enough though.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 28, 2013 14:17:50 GMT -5
The whole world of Pit Bull advocacy and rescue is screwed. The breed is pretty much lost in terms of preserving good, sound, true Pit Bulls. There is no such thing as APBT rescue anymore. There is no other breed that I've ever come across that is full of so many advocates who actively work so hard to discredit and dumb down their own breed.
But then again, most people involved in Pit Bull advocacy don't care about the breed and don't know anything about it. They've learned most of what they know through the media and websites like Stubby Dog.
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Post by michele5611 on Jun 28, 2013 14:25:43 GMT -5
^ And so many of them wouldn't know a real pit bull if they saw one and furthermore don't even believe they exist!
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Post by michele5611 on Jun 28, 2013 14:28:20 GMT -5
Did anyone read the comments.....oy!
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 28, 2013 14:38:13 GMT -5
I browsed them, I saw a lot of people in agreement.
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Post by michele5611 on Jun 28, 2013 14:39:54 GMT -5
The whole world of Pit Bull advocacy and rescue is screwed. The breed is pretty much lost in terms of preserving good, sound, true Pit Bulls. There is no such thing as APBT rescue anymore. There is no other breed that I've ever come across that is full of so many advocates who actively work so hard to discredit and dumb down their own breed. But then again, most people involved in Pit Bull advocacy don't care about the breed and don't know anything about it. They've learned most of what they know through the media and websites like Stubby Dog. The other thing that has always amazed me is the arrogance of the new pit bull advocates. The whole self proclaimed expert thing irks me to begin with but esp. when half of these so called "experts" have been in the pit bull world for all of a couple of years!
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perseus
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Post by perseus on Jun 28, 2013 14:49:37 GMT -5
You know I been meaning to throw this out there and see what the opinion might be. You know i have been digging into the history of the breed more as of late and in doing so have gotten to know a bit of insight into The old school dogmen. Let me state from the get go, I do not hold w fighting, period. And... I am not romanticizing it. That being said I am starting to be of a mind that there is some credence to the notion that it might have been better for the dogs to have stayed in the hands of true dogmen. It seems like more harm than good has come from the government and the big advocacy groups getting involved. The population problem wasn't an issue and you didn't hear about attacks. I am not saying there may have been some abuse but the picture painted wasn't accurate I believe now and in fact I think there is a case to be made that with the dogs getting more popular and the thug element getting involved that's when the the real horrors started happening. You would have a way more informed opinion Mary cause you have been involved with the dogs for a good while. We know that these organizations like HUS, PETA, ASPCA, etc. have agendas, play the sympathy card and are disingenuous often. Ranting i know and this may not be a popular position to hold and I confess I don't really know but the more I learn about the reality of these dogs from people who have been devoted to them for decades, there seems to be lot of grey that manifest itself.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 28, 2013 15:08:26 GMT -5
I know where you are coming from, and I definitely think that the breed was in a potentially better place before a lot of the public got a hold of them. I had the same opinion when I first got involved with the breed that you state above.
When I first researched the breed, there wasn't Stubby Dog or Pinups for Pit Bulls or similar fluffy orgs. My sources for information were old groups like Pitbull-L (very anti dog fighting but lots of knowledgeable people on the list), the Stratton books, and newsgroups like rec.pets.dogs.breeds and I talked to people like Gary Hammond and Ren Sanchez (Ishikawa bloodlines - no idea what happened to him) and I got a really good solid understanding of what these dogs SHOULD be and a real appreciation for breed history. Like any closed group with their own agenda, there is a certain bias - and you'd be hard pressed to find a dogman that thinks the breed is better off with average Joe rescue guy vs. a private dogfighter. Dog fighting isn't any big deal to people like these, they think the dogs like it, and they very often have an extremely limited knowledge of dog behavior overall, even though they really do GET the "essence" of what the breed is and know what should be seen in general in Pit Bull temperament.
I've read tons of old material written by dogmen. I have a pile of fighting dog mags in my living room. I've read a bunch of old pit reports. It's very easy to be lulled into a false sense of what dog fighting is/was when you talk to these people and read their material. There is a LOT of romanticizing.
I think the breed would be better off extinct (yes, it hurts to even type that) then to exist largely in the hands of dogfighters because it's brutal and awful and animal abuse plain and simple. Just like a hunter may know his prey really well, have some kind of respect for it, even real admiration for it, wants it to prosper, in the end he just plans on killing it anyway. This is kind of how I see dogfighters.
There is a lot of "humaniac hysteria" amongst pro dog fighters and people who support the sport because they don't want to go to jail or see people they admire go to jail. HSUS is very pro rescued fighting dog now - they are not the enemy anymore. ASPCA - probably would also be considered a "humaniac" group by dog fighting aficionados but they are also very pro Pit Bull and anti BSL. Why are they CONSIDERED the enemy by some? Because they go after dog fighters. ( PETA is just...PETA. No one takes them seriously, and they are pro BSL. )
I get not wanting to see the gamebred APBT die out, but unfortunately that is the only humane, ethical, logical way for things to progress for this breed. I do feel like the horse is out of the barn, and I don't know if the breed will ever fully recover in a genuine way from the shitshow that the past 30 years has been. So I can see nostalgia in wanting things to return to "The good old days" when mainly these dogs were in the hands of dogmen. But it's just not something I'd personally want to have happen, because I care about the individual dogs that would suffer so greatly. What's worse? Being a fighting dog enduring the horrors of the pit, or being owned by an idiot, where maybe the dog eventually gets taken away, tossed in a shelter, than euth'd?
That's my ramble-y response.
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Post by Dave on Jun 28, 2013 15:16:49 GMT -5
Regarding the comments; I just can't understand the fact that some people own a pit bull, or see them at a shelter or rescue, decide to advocate, or even start a rescue based on their extremely limited exposure to street dogs, BYB dogs, and mutts of questionable heritage and suddenly they are experts. They constantly put down the remarks of knowledgeable people (Michelle for instance, who commented and was quite correct) as if they are the problem.
There should be a requirement of 5 years as an intern to study the breed from quality breeders, competition enthusiasts and people well-versed in the history of the three main breeds called pit bulls before they ever even think about opening their big fat traps.
I'm no expert, either. But I started researching the breed in the 70's, and didn't even touch a Pit Bull until the 80's when I started actually going to breed shows, weight pulls, and other doggy competitions. I met nice people that shared their experience and knowledge freely, and the few Pit Bull rescues that I knew of all advocated separation, caution, break sticks and solid leashes. I also met secretive people that I had to read between the lines to understand. There really was no advocacy to speak of. Everyone that knew the breed(s) agreed on just about everything. How and when did it all go south?
I get it. They want to help. But they are helping MUTTS. Not Pit Bulls. I wish they could understand that.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 28, 2013 15:21:51 GMT -5
I'm "mean" because I don't care about dogs that look like Pit Bulls but aren't Pit Bulls. I get it. But it's just that I care about my breed and the "advocacy" work these people are doing in the name of "Pit Bulls" is hurting the breed they say doesn't exist. Yet they sit there and call themselves breed advocates, talking about "pit bull this, and pit bull that", until you have to talk about something that isn't cute and fluffy, then it's, "we're not talking about a breed! 'Pit bull' is just slang for dogs that look a certain way, there is no such breed so it's unfair to talk about specifics!".
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perseus
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Post by perseus on Jun 28, 2013 15:28:12 GMT -5
Yes, I would not have problem w this.
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perseus
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Post by perseus on Jun 28, 2013 15:37:04 GMT -5
Thanks for that response Mary. Yeah it kind of does seem like the only logical progression. It's just the sheer numbers of dogs out there coupled together with the ignorance that's just overwhelming. I do think we are very much in the minority here and I guess just "elitist" assholes.
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Post by michele5611 on Jun 28, 2013 15:49:52 GMT -5
Yes we are the elitists...ha! They are the ones so full of hubris that have no interest in learning from those who came before them!'
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 28, 2013 17:33:08 GMT -5
Thanks for that response Mary. Yeah it kind of does seem like the only logical progression. It's just the sheer numbers of dogs out there coupled together with the ignorance that's just overwhelming. I do think we are very much in the minority here and I guess just "elitist" assholes. Just remember, too, that the dogmen are some of the reason the dogs got into the hands of the "public" as well; lot of indiscriminate breeding and selling. They didn't exactly have great ethics.
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pitbullmamaliz
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on Jun 29, 2013 14:08:27 GMT -5
The last paragraph of that blog is written about me. ;-) He's the one who got everybody insulting me and the way I've raised Inara.
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