life sucks

[RealPitBull]

We'll be here if you need us!

[michele5611]

Are you familiar with NILIF or no free lunch?

[zueszena]

yes am familiar with nilif,,,,to put this in simple terms she is just a super alpha,,,don't think anything is gonna break her of that,,,but will keep tryin or deal with the alternatives

[zueszena]

i mean i've in all my yrs with dogs never seen a female be this much of an alpha

[michele5611]

Matt def. sounds like you have your hands full with her but as Mary said we are all here if you need us!

[maryellen]

stop walking them together. period... start training separately, limit playtime. siblings WILL fight more just as same sex will... if she pitches a fit because she is put away and zeus is out tooo freaking bad let her throw a tantrum and deal with it. the more you allow her to pitch her fits the more she will start reacting out . since you dont believe in crate/rotate then buy good tethers for the house and put some on the walls or floor and tether her so that each pup can have their own space and time with you. the more she does this the better she will get at it and one day zeus will say enough is enough and he WILL go after her

[loverocksalot]

Sorry this has happened. Maryellen has great advice. I would definately not walk them together. I too am having a small problem with a neighbor dog. and walking two dogs together with a loose dog is likely to be a problem.

[ofrn]

im sorry to here about your problem, that really sucks. we had the same problem when my cousin was living with us, with her female pit zippy. her and my kiera didnt get along at all, zippy used to go after her all the time, then one day kiera said enough and fought back. after that they were fine, you couldnt get them away from each other. until they moved out. and my kiera can be quite da also, and our land lord used to let his dogs out as soon as we brought ours out the door, he was an instegator. but we just crated zippy and put kiera in the bed room when we were gone, other then that we just never took our eyes off them. but i really hope everything works out for ya, id hate to see you have to seperate them.

[pistis]

Yours sound like mine...EXACTLY like mine. I have a 2 y/o girl named Lola who is most definately the alpha anywhere she goes (with dogs- not people, just to clarify.) We've had her since she was 8 weeks old and my girl is BUTCH...AND a princess...AND she means business when it comes to other dogs. I know what you mean when you say "it's nuts coming from a female." I also have a 1 1/2 y/o male named Ergo we rescued from a shelter when he was a puppy.

Lola is highly dog selective, borderline DA. Ergo is flat out DA with some behavioral issues. Trust me when I tell you that is NOT the outcome we desired when adopting our second dog, and when we did adopt Ergo it was before Lola showed real signs of aggression towards other animals.

When Ergo got big enough and started going through maturity Lola would react to him and at first he'd back-off. Now they will have full-blown fights with each other.

We knew this was a possibility even though we hoped for the best.

So here's how it works in our house:

1. Absolutely NO toys/treats/ ANYthing that cold be valuable left on the floor, OR in their reach where they could pull it off the counter, ect. This includes anything THEY deem toy-worthy, not just actual "dog toys" we've bought them from Petsmart. Whether it's a piece of rope, cloth, sock, shoe, ect. Everything stays away when they are out together. Period.

2. It takes time, but pay attention to them and figure out what each of their triggers are. Meaning, what gets them excited, or what causes one of them (it sounds more like your girl) to go into fight-mode. Because once you fix it in one area, an issue could develope in another area, so always stay alert to their signals. Always keep an eye out for the signs that show a potential "problem." This helps in developing your plan of action, and what you can/can't do with them together. (Do they get too excited together to the point of re-direction when you guys come home, ect?)

3. If they are in a situation where there are dogs and a lot of excitement is involved they are crated and rotated for the next 2-3 days because that excitement increases their chance of fighting even when the dogs are gone. (This is a new rule we developed once we learned that even what seems like "good/happy" excitement can turn into resource gaurding/possesive behavior/redirection.)

They recently had their first play-date in a long time with my good friend's pibble and possible pibble-mix. It went great (as it does 98% of the time), but that night after the dogs were gone mine fought again. This happened hours after my friend had left, and after they had taken a long nap in their crates.

4. They are always supervised!! There is no better way to be prepared, and in the long-run you will be less stressed because you won't have to drop whatever you're doing to run and break-up a dog-fight in time.

5. We always keep tools with us that will help stop/break-up a fight. For example, we keep a blow-horn and water bottle around incase something does happen whenever they are out together. It has stopped fights from happening on several different occasions and keeps them from doing more damage to each other had we tried to physically pull them apart (because that takes more time.) Some people on here have breaksticks/fightsticks, I can't remember exactly what they're called since we don't have them. But they are used to break-up fights as well.

6. Make sure to figure out a good plan- keyword "good," "proper" can also be used. You have to take the *right* steps to remedy these issues. Not just anything will work. This will help you live less stressfully in the long-run, and it will allow your pibbles to live less stressfully. That's where good behaviorists and trainers come in, and the professionals on this forum too!

7. We remind ourselves that this is part of owning our wonderful love-pigs (we call them pigs ), and once you get a routine/system it's not bad at all. Figuring out what you're going to do/ how you're going to do it is the hardest part. Putting it into action is not that bad. They love us so intensely I wouldn't have it any other way, or think that my life would be more complete without one of them.

In your situation, if the neighbor's dog is getting them all fired up, then they can not be allowed outside together, and honestly crate-and-rotate will have to be a serious consideration for you. Here's why: if you even let one dog out at a time, and the neighbor's dog/s gets one of your's all excited, that excitement is going to transfer inside once you bring your dog in, and that will increase your chance of a fight.

You could always talk with your neighbor and figure out a system where your dogs can be out at certain but different times. For example, you can let your dogs out in the morning then bring them in after however long, then he/she/they can let their dogs out once your's are inside.

On another note, when introduced properly (even though they may cry and scream at first when left in there), they see their crates as a safe haven. Trust me on this Matt, it's what they do (so long as there aren't any other behavioral issues under the surface.) Mine hated the crate at first when they were puppies, but they learned that's where they get their kongs, treats, toys, ect. Now they both go in there on their own. They especially love it for "bedtime." It makes it easier on us to supervise and keep them seperate. Wayyy easier.

When we were living in the apt. they had to be crated-and-rotated once we realized that, due to lack of space and inadequate exercise, they just couldn't be around each other. In our house they get tons of exercise, space, and get along 100x's better, but that doesn't mean we can let them out and not watch what they do. They're just better behaved and sleep more. A tired dog is a happy and good dog. We keep an eye out for the signs and crate-and-rotate if/when necessary- like after play-dates involving other dogs.

Someone mentioned tethering them somewhere in the house so you can "rotate" them that way. It could be a good idea, but chances are they will chew through the ropes due to the initial stress and frustration and it won't work. They would rather have the crate that can become their little "sanctuary." They would. I promise. They're dogs and they will like their time in their own "space" eventually, and it's better for them. If I so much as look at the freezer Lola is BEGGING me to go in her crate because she knows she gets goodies in there, and she lovess goodies.

Definately get in contact with a trainer- at least just call someone for advice. Of course we are here as well. No worries Matt. You guys will get through this annoying teenage, sibling rivalry thing. Just make sure you don't ignore the problem, try to "work around it," or ignore the dog's warning signs. So long as you take the proper action it will be all good. Getting there might be hard, but we're all here for you and you will. And, not-to-mention, your dog's wil love you more for it and live a happier life!

You are doing a great job for these pups btw. Most people would give-up or get rid of one of them. They are very lucky to have you guys! ((many hugs))

That's my advice. I'm sure others have more ideas and experience- the professionals I was mentioning. I'm not a professional, but your situation sounds a lot like ours and that's what we do in our house. Maybe some more people have more advice/ better advice for both of us! I know others on this forum can relate as well. Keep us posted!

[suziriot]

AWESOME post Faith!!! BTW, we call ours pigs too! ;D

Matt, I'm so sorry about this and I know you want what is best for these pups. PLEASE trust us on the crate/rotate. Even for me, there was a time when I thought crating was just mean and cruel. But now I know that the crate/rotate system can and will make the dogs even happier if done correctly. DA can be managed and like Faith said, it may seem impossibly overwhelming at first but you quickly get into a routine. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.

[zueszena]

thanx for all the advice and kind words guys guess the scariest thing about all this is on a couple of the occasions,,,she showed no sign it was coming,,,and i know what you say there is always some sign but believe me there wasn't,,,,from all is cool to snap snap,,in mach .2 sec,,,goin to pull everything away from them and work on seperate time and maybe crate but swear i still hate the idea,,,but thanx again for all the kind words and support

[adoptapitbull]

Wow...I'm sorry to hear this.

If you decide to keep her, crate/room and rotate should really be something to consider. When having just two dogs, it would be so simple. It's the only way you know that they'll be 100% safe. After having a few 5 dog pile on fights here because of my Catahoula, I'm so on edge. Crating and rotating Snorts and Mav as a precaution just takes all the stress away. Sometimes it's not even crating, but keeping in a separate room. If my husband is on the computer, he'll keep Mav and Cappy, or just Mav, in the bedroom and I'll have the others out here in the living room. We just keep doors closed and communicate "I'm putting Snorts away, you can let Mav out." or "Put Mav away, Snorts has to pee!" It's super easy and takes about 10 seconds. Give each dog a special treat when they go in the crate. For us, it's an ice cube or an egg. They can't run into their crates fast enough when they see the treat. Once you get a crate, you'll see why practically every dog household has one! Good luck and keep us posted!

[loverocksalot]

Matt from the bottom of my heart I am telling you that the crate is the most wonderful thing invented. Especially for a young dog. I used it like a baby's nursery. Rocky went same time every day and since he was the only dog there was a time when he would just go in on his own for morning nap, afternoon nap and bed time. He loved his crate felt safe and I never had problems with accidents or getting into anything. The best is if I did have to go out for a class trip or somehthing I did not have to worry about him. I knew he was safe and comfortable. I had some family members who thought it was cruel to put a dog in a crate until they saw how well behaved he was and how he would go in there while we sat and ate dinner. I Highly recommend you give it a try first thing! If they have never used a crate I have a great system for getting them use to it. If you use a plastic one dont put the top on right away. Make it like a bed. THen slowly add the top not on all the way like hanging off the back and each day move it up a little till it is all the way on. You should not have to do this system only if they are very terrified of the crate. But being so young should not be a problem at all. Put them in while you are home and if they bark or cry and they know the quiet command then reward them for being quiet. Reward Reward Reward for good crate behavior. You will be so pleased believe me. It gives us parents me time just like when your son was a baby and took a nap. But never use it for punishment or it will backfire on you. Just for quiet time or calm down time. OH PS in the afternoon for nap time I would play soundscapes a very relaxing mood music on cable. Rocky could nap for 3 hours giving me time to paint my living room dining room and kitchen. As a matter of fact I just turned the music on and Rocky has gone into deep sleep nap time. THe music definately helps calm him.
On a last note obviously I do not crate and rotate cause I only have one. I have not been crating him however his crate is still out in a back room cause he will go to it if he gets scared or nervous. But I am a little upset with myself that I did not keep up with it cause now that I am doing a program with him at the library I know he will not stay quiet in the crate. Also I want to foster so now I am going to have to get him back to a crate routine. Luckily since he is familiar with it. It should be real easy and he will quickly realize she (other dog) leaves me alone when I am in here. And I love it and feel safe.
Please give it a try like today! You will not regret it. Dogs love their safe den.

[pistis]

I used to say there weren't any warning signs either. These are my first 2 as well. It was when I first joined this forum too, and I would swear these people on here didn't get it and that my dogs' fights would happen out of nowhere with no signs attached. Once I started paying attention I started realizing what they were, and what I wasn't noticing/picking up on when it first started. Trust me, they are there. Dogs don't *snap* unless there is some underlying, neurological problem there. This I know and have learned from experience.

Think about it; if a dog fights it could mean disasterous results. They are aware of this. They know it could mean serious injury, pain, possibly death. They will aviod fights at all costs- that's why they give warning signs. If those signs don't work, then it's time for action.

Are you positive you saw the very beginning of all of their scraps so far? Are you sure you know everything to look out for? It's ok to not know all of that right now. This is your first time dealing with this. You'll notice things the more you think to look for it. Trust me, they are communicating to each other before a fight happens. You just may not understand their whole "language" yet. There's info on this forum somewhere about dog body language, growls, ect. There are also good books I believe. Maybe someone on here can point you in the right direction to those books if you like? Either way, it sounds like it's time to learn how they're "talking" to each other and to you. It's cool too, once you learn what they're trying to tell you when they're trying to tell it to you (or each other), because you feel closer to them knowing you understand them so well. It makes your bond that much better.

[suziriot]

One of the books Faith might be referring to is On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas. You can order it online from Amazon. It's a very simple book with some basic but incredibly valuable information about how not only to read your dog's communication but how to communicate back to them in their language. I swear by this book. It's a great introduction to truly understanding canine behavior, regardless of the breed. In fact, I'm thinking about ordering a few copies and including one in the packet that we'll be giving to new foster homes.

[PBLove]

Wonderful book!! Definitely recommend it.

[zueszena]

so heya guys,,and i mean all of ya,,thanx from the bottom of my heart for allyour wisdom and support,,,gonna workon some things and see what happens,,,but to be honest gonna do some things my way,,and also follow several of y"alls suggestions as well,,,hope all comes out ok and i let you guys and gals know,,,guess i should say gals,since you seem o rule the roost here lol,,,and i think it"S great,,,,anyway thanx again and i keep you all posted on progress or ,,,,omg i need help again,,,hoping for the previous ,,,

[loverocksalot]

Hope it goes well. Good Luck