soft/hard dogs

[melonie]

I've seen the term 'soft' dog, 'hard' dog.
ex "She's a very soft dog."
I assume they're talking about temperament.
But what exactly do these terms mean?

[loverocksalot]

That is a good question. I have always been told Rocky is a soft dog. Im not sure but I think It is that he needs softer training methods and he is very sensitive like to people raising voices etc. Harsher corrections do not work on Rocky found this out in our first training class. Worked wonders on most of the dogs in class but Rocky actually went from being a quiet little pup who walked nicely to a yelping whining get me outa here not wanting to heal and snapping at trainer who grabed his collar to correct him. I am interested in hearing the definition for "soft dog" vs "Hard".

[RealPitBull]

Ok, these are sort of nebulous terms that are difficult to define, but I'll try.....

When I say "soft" I mean a dog that is very deferential to humans. The typical, true Pit Bull temperament is "soft" towards people. This is a dog that may tend to shut down when harsh methods are used, responds to angry voices by becoming very subdued, and is quick to respond favorably to physicality and social pressure from humans (i.e allows handling, easily moves or relinquishes an area/space, etc). This isn't necessarily a "shy" dog (Pit Bulls should not be SHY, they should want to approach EVERYone and be EVERYone's friend).

When I say "hard" I mean a dog that is going to give you some grief when you push back against the dog's advances. This is a dog that some may consider a "dominant personality". A dog that isn't phased by leash corrects, verbal reprimands, or a human's attempts at establishing correct social space. They are not human aggressive, but they require someone who has a "take no sh*t" attitude and is going to set very strong boundaries. There are actually a lot of Pit Bulls like this out there. These aren't necessarily "bad" dogs but they do not show the deferential attitude I prefer in the Pit Bull.

It's almost like the way you expect a typical Pit Bull to be with other dogs - button-pushy, in-yer-face, doesn't heed calming signals, needs lots of supervision and direction - is how a hard dog acts with people.

I'd love to hear what others have to say on "hard" and "soft" dogs.

[SunraysPitBulls]

I think Kanga is a hard dog.... She needs to be told in a VERY STERN voice to get her attention, leash corrections do nothing....
LOL

But then again, she loves all people, just needs someone tough to get her to do what you want, unless you have food!

hehe

[AmyJo27]

So, is it possible for a dog to be sometimes hard and sometimes soft?

My parents have a Lab mix that really listens when she wants to. Sometimes she can be really submissive and listen really well then 5 minutes later she is trying to dominate hump you and will not listen for her life. I swear...That dog is PMS’ing or maybe its menopause, she's an older gal!

I am unsure what to call her! hard, soft, hard, soft...??? LOL!

[RealPitBull]

Well, like I said, it is a bit difficult to define. But no, a dog is either soft or hard - it is part of their personality/temperament.

[sugar]

Don't know what Chubby is. He can be pretty hard headed but is very good at knocking off some naughty behaviors with the right "Hey!"
Also, with people he meets on the streets he is always very gentle and usually just sits and leans into them while they pet him (not really a jumper, unless someone waves a hat around or something that says "its a toy, playtime!")

[sugar]

But he pulls like a mule and has his crazy toy obsession (although, not aggression).
So does that sound like a hard or softie?

[emilys]

I like Mary's definitions and agree. OTOH, our pit bulls do have an element of "hardness" which is their stubborn/bullheadedness about certain things.

[adoptapitbull]

Mine are definitely soft. Cappy can be stubborn about certain things like when he steals something he shouldn't, he runs away and makes it a "catch me" game. Other than that, they just about molest people when people come. I wish I had a video of how Mav and Cappy practically kill my mom with excitement when she comes. There's no stopping them when Nanny comes to visit. Heck, even saying "Nanny" puts them in a frenzy. Even when Jim and I are arguing, they all go and hide under the bed. Stern voices are enough to make them go hide. I suppose when people refer to their dogs as "big babies", that's probably a "soft" dog then, right?

[RealPitBull]

Soft/hard isn't determined by lack of manners. I.E. untrained Pit Bulls tend to be big-time pullers, jumpers, chewers, etc. no matter if they are hard or soft. There can also be that air of bullheadedness that Emily mentioned. That's just the breed - I mean, they have bulldog and terrier ancestry so that pretty much makes them the kings and queens of single-minded determination.

Still, while I expect bullheaded singlemindedness in an untrained dog who just can't contain himself and goes into tunnel vision around another dog, I expect a different attitude when the attention is on a person. The former is UP - Ready to Go - No Ifs Ands or Butts - Demanding to Engage - Confrontational. The latter is wanting to Engage - But Asking Nicely - "Please please can I see you and roll around the floor at your feet, and show you how privleged I feel to just have you look at me" - Appeasement Gestures Galore - The Opposite of Confrontational.

I think the key term is deferential: that is what I am looking for in the breed, and what a soft dog tends to show to humans *as a whole*. There are also soft dogs, and REALLY soft dogs that basically think a stern from their human look is the end of the world.

[RealPitBull]

Apr 23, 2010 10:14:07 GMT -5 adoptapitbull said:

I suppose when people refer to their dogs as "big babies", that's probably a "soft" dog then, right?

That would really depend on the person's definition of "big baby" I consider my dog a big baby in terms of wanting to cuddle and being such a momma's boy. My dog is also NOT what I would consider soft.

[sugar]

Ok, so all this talk of hard/soft and being all floppy and belly-up makes me question: Chubs doesn't show his belly (only recently has he started sleeping on his side, before it was strictly belly on the floor).
Does this mean he isn't a 'submissive' soft type?

[adoptapitbull]

To be honest, I had never heard the whole "soft/hard" thing till now!

[RealPitBull]

Apr 23, 2010 10:29:57 GMT -5 sugar said:

Ok, so all this talk of hard/soft and being all floppy and belly-up makes me question: Chubs doesn't show his belly (only recently has he started sleeping on his side, before it was strictly belly on the floor).
Does this mean he isn't a 'submissive' soft type?

No, it doesn't mean anything in and of itself. Maybe he is more comfortable with his belly on the floor or laying on his side. Maybe he isn't secure enough to show his belly (a dog that feels REALLY confident and secure will also feel very comfortable laying upside, belly exposed - it's not just a "submission" thing).

You have to realize that "hard" and "soft" are not scientific behavioral terms. Like "dominant" and "submissive" they are subjective words tossed around by trainers to describe temperament or personality.

You can't pick one or two behaviors and say, "Ok, my dog did A) so that makes him B)". Just doesn't work like that. I also do not believe "soft/hard" can or should be used interchangeably with "submissive/dominant".

[sugar]

I guess I was just throw for a loop because I've heard from a lot of people that "oh, he doesn't show you his belly, its because he's very dominant. Only very dominant dogs refuse to show weakness by exposing their bellies" or things to that effect, when I started seeing this thread about hard/soft I got thing mixed up, thx for the clarification!

[RealPitBull]

Apr 23, 2010 10:48:35 GMT -5 sugar said:

I guess I was just throw for a loop because I've heard from a lot of people that "oh, he doesn't show you his belly, its because he's very dominant. Only very dominant dogs refuse to show weakness by exposing their bellies" or things to that effect, when I started seeing this thread about hard/soft I got thing mixed up, thx for the clarification!

Yeah, ignore that sort of talk. It is meaningless and uninformed. People who try to pigeon-hole dogs into neat little categories of "dominant" or "sumissive" are missing the mark by miles and miles.

A dog CAN show his belly in a submissive fashion. But it is a self-imposed behavior. The dog isn't FORCED into the position. It is VERY likely that a dog will fight against or try to get away from a human who is trying to force him onto his back because the human is SCARING the poor dog. Maybe the human is trying to kill him! How does he know? It is a very vulnerable position to be in.

On the other hand, some dogs just lay upside down as a matter of habit. A lot of Pit Bulls will just throw themselves on the floor and expose their bellies just because that's what they do. Or they will sleep like that. It doesn't mean that the dog is "submitting". It just means he is comfortable in that position for the moment, and secure in his surroundings.

See what I mean? That's why it is dangerous/erroneous to try and label a dog as "dominant or submissive" based on just one behavior. Dogs also can be both dominant AND submissive depending upon the situation. Just like most humans are dominant in some settings, and not in others. Dominance/submission is about resource control, period. It is not about a "personality" or "who a dog is".

[purplepaws121]

great discussion!! very informative

[adoptapitbull]

Exactly, Mary. Try explaining that to one of Cesar's followers though...it's almost impossible.

Mav is notorious for rolling over onto his belly in order to get someone to play with him, or if he wants someone's toy.

[melonie]

Mary thanks for the insight.
Zeke is then a soft dog. He's untrained obviously, but he is very much a people dog. I haven't ever tried harsh words etc with him because of his abuse history. If he even thinks your movement was intended to hurt, he cowers, can't imagine what he'd do if you yelled at him.
When working with him I use an 'I'm the boss' tone with an I'm telling you not asking you attitude, and it works very well. If I'm in an ask attitude/tone, then like most dogs, he won't listen.
When we're relaxing he loves nothing more than to be cuddled and sweet talked. He loves his treats, and is motivated by a good one, but attention motivates him a lot faster. When he gets over excited he can be difficult to calm down but using a calm and relaxed tone works so much better than an impatient or annoyed tone. He's also learning that jumping won't get him anywhere, so yesterday was a bit better in that area! He has a lot to learn yet, but he is catching on fast!
Anyways, I would call him the alpha dog. He is very much a bully when it comes to other dogs. He gets along fine with most dogs, but any that are brought to meet him need to be a non alpha type. I'd love to just bring him home and keep him, but I know he and Mac would clash, and that isn't fair to either of them.

Looking at my three dogs... I'd say they're all soft dogs, and probably one reason I've been able to have 3 males with out many problems.
Mac is my alpha... he loves to jump onto my bed and not move. You can cuss, threaten, bribe.... he won't budge.( well if you have a treat he'll move!) But if you sweet talk him he'll get down. This is the only area where we've had issues of him being a jack@ss really, and now days he will wait until I'm in bed before he jumps up.
I've never had to be harsh or hard with Winston because we haven't really been in a situation in which I couldn't redirect him. Though I'm sure if I had tried to stop him from chasing the rabbit in the yard the other day I would have lost the battle. Winston didn't win the race, and I tried to explain to him that he needed to leave poor bunnies alone. But I'm fairly sure he'll try to catch another one.