Shock Collar & Invisible Fence Info

[RealPitBull]

** Fear conditioning occludes LTP-induced presynaptic enhancement of
synaptic transmission in the cortical pathway to the lateral amygdala
(Tsevtkov, E., Carlezon, W., Benes, F., Kandel, E., & Bolshakov, V.
(2002) Neuron, 34(2), 289-300).

** Clinical Signs caused by the use of electronic training collars on
dogs (Canis familiaris) in everyday life situations. (Schalke E,
Stichnoth J, & Jones-Baade R. Journal of Applied Animal Behavior
Science, doi:10.1016/j.japplanim.2006.11.002

** Behavioral, saliva cortisol, and heart rate responses to different
types of stimuli in dogs (Beerda, B. (1998). Applied Animal Behaviour
Science, 58, 365-381).


www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/05.30/01-fear.html

www.ipdta.org/Research%20Findings.html#Shock_Equipment_

www.trulydogfriendly.com

I-Fences:

www.njboxerrescue.com/Memorials-Jack.html
www.positivedogs.com/electronic_fencing.html

[aziz]

I am glad i read about the shock collar
as 2 days ago i got in contact with a trainer who wanted to use a shock collar on my dog. I did not think it necessary since my dog is a sweet pie, walks perfectly on the leash, does not react to other dogs on the leash and can do a thousand tricks BUT when i used to take him to the park off -leash he would get into arguments with other dog. he never hurt another dog but i still thought his body slam style upsetting.
he said we can try another method but that it will take a long time.

[windowdog]

Yeah personally I'd get rid of that trainer. Training a dog can take a while, but I'd be cautious about anyone advocating an "instant fix" method like shock collars. I really don't like dealing with people that see hurting animals as a means to an end.

[valliesong]

Your dog is just being a pit bull, which is why pit bulls should never go to offleash parks with other dogs.

www.realpitbull.com/parks.html

[RealPitBull]

Oh lord, run don't walk away from that trainer! And if your dog gets in arguments at off leash parks, keep'im out of the off leash parks. Simpler (and cheaper) fix than hiring a trainer to shock your dog (which actually could very well make the aggression worse, not better).

[snipe]

ya i hate shock collars. i saw a website Sit-Means-Sit and thought they looked pretty good, until i watched their videos and noticed the dogs were only paying such close attention because they didn't want to get .

[bamapitbullmom]

Don't get us started on Hassen with Sit Means Sit...he sent me a friend request on Myspace a few days ago and I simply replied, "No thanks" and he replied with this:

RE: Friend request

Body:

"My intent was simply to help support the fight against BSL-I feel strongly that this cause goes beyond any differences in training philosophy.
Since you went to the trouble to write, I suppose it's more important to be a b itch than to put the breed first. Nice..."

Thou dost protest too much? LOL His reply implied I had an issue with his training philosophy, though I never mentioned training! Even though that's exactly why I denied him, the reason is b/c I don't what my page to be associated with that type of harsh compulsion training methods. Guess he gets that alot.

Alot of shock collar supporters will say that other methods will take a long time. Not true. It's just an excuse.

Recently I was at an agility seminar with a highly accomplished trainer who has MACH'd agility difficult breeds...Bloodhounds, Greyhounds, etc.

An older couple with a sheltie said they had problems with teaching a solid recall (or a recall at all) and that the dog has actually run into traffic on several occasions b/c she wouldn't come when called. My initial thought is USE A LEASH!! The trainer simply said, "Get an shock collar, borrow one if you don't have one." and that's it. So sad.

When training strays away from encouraging bonding between pet and owner, enjoyment, fun, encouragement, play, critical thinking and humane treatment in lieu of a "means to an end" I think we have a problem.

[RealPitBull]

Hassen is a jerk. Don't tell anyone I said that But yah, I don't allow compulsion/pain trainers on my Myspace page, either. I don't care if you are anti BSL. Same thing like I've turned down unethical breeders who were trying to fight BSL - um, sorry, you are contributing to the problem you are trying to fight. I took the time to explain to one person and she actually got it and later admitted I was right.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all, but there are some things I just cannot dismiss. Bad breeding and shocking dogs are two of those things.

[snipe]

i tried a shock collar once, it hurts. i'd like to put one on someone who uses one and shock 'em every time i said come. i bet they'd "learn" pretty quickly.

alright notice in this video it says that he uses a ball as a reward, but look at his other hand, shocking device perhaps? also WTF this guy doesn't have a gift, the dog does what he says or gets zapped.

www.sitmeanssit.com/chicago-illinois-dog-training-with-darrel-hager/

lol they also say it gives them complete control. wouldn't it be even better to be in control with merely your voice?

[bamapitbullmom]

Hassen is the founder of SMS, there are tons of SMS franchisees across the US.

I've seen all of the videos using his methods than I care to admit. Watching Fred himself is enough to make you see exactly what the motivation behind his training is.

One of the more disturbing things I have seen from SMS is the forcing of dogs on lead and shock collar to continuously trot around a room, jumping onto chairs and other objects and sitting, then jumping over objects. If the dog doesn't respond immediately it gets .

The dogs are shut down, throwing stress signs, some are trembling, terrified to fail (though they have no idea what's expected of them) and they are visibly exhausted. What ticks me off is the owners kicked back in lawn chairs watching, chatting with each other and apparently happy that this genius has "trained" their difficult dog to jump into a chair. WTF is the point other than stroking his own ego and pounding his chest in "I AM MAN" fashion? Makes me sick.

[snipe]

Feb 2, 2009 15:25:37 GMT -5 bamapitbullmom said:

Hassen is the founder of SMS, there are tons of SMS franchisees across the US.

I've seen all of the videos using his methods than I care to admit. Watching Fred himself is enough to make you see exactly what the motivation behind his training is.

One of the more disturbing things I have seen from SMS is the forcing of dogs on lead and shock collar to continuously trot around a room, jumping onto chairs and other objects and sitting, then jumping over objects. If the dog doesn't respond immediately it gets .

The dogs are shut down, throwing stress signs, some are trembling, terrified to fail (though they have no idea what's expected of them) and they are visibly exhausted. What ticks me off is the owners kicked back in lawn chairs watching, chatting with each other and apparently happy that this genius has "trained" their difficult dog to jump into a chair. WTF is the point other than stroking his own ego and pounding his chest in "I AM MAN" fashion? Makes me sick.

lol I AM MAN. well that's exactly it, but im sure most, if not all of those dogs are somewhat food motivated. just show him a treat and he'll jump right onto that chair.

[RealPitBull]

I've come to notice that a lot of shock collar trainers who insist they "have" to use the tool because "nothing else has worked" ask their dogs to do REALLY stupid things that have NOTHING to do with living with a well-mannered companion. If you can't train your sighthound to come every single time you call in a field full of rabbits maybe it's time to USE A LEASH instead of resorting to a shock collar.

Also, who wants 'total control' of another living being? How is that humane or ethical, if the dog doesn't do EVERYthing asked at the first cue it gets hurt? And the fact that these dogs STILL continually get zapped proves that no matter the training technique, dogs are NOT errorless and WILL make MISTAKES. Even humans with the supposedly superior brain and reasoning power make mistakes like crazy. How can we expect more from our dogs than we expect from ourselves and fellow human beings??? The whole mindset of these people is infuriating - and ILLOGICAL. And often times sadistic.

[snipe]

i agree. some of the coolest tricks my dog does are things she figured out how to do on her own.

-opening the door
-catching a ball, no matter how high it is thrown (i know many dogs can do this but i, have also seen ones that let it hit the ground. rosie positions herself under them, and then catches it.)
-playing soccer

[bamapitbullmom]

Feb 2, 2009 16:00:05 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

I've come to notice that a lot of shock collar trainers who insist they "have" to use the tool because "nothing else has worked" ask their dogs to do REALLY stupid things that have NOTHING to do with living with a well-mannered companion. If you can't train your sighthound to come every single time you call in a field full of rabbits maybe it's time to USE A LEASH instead of resorting to a shock collar.

Also, who wants 'total control' of another living being? How is that humane or ethical, if the dog doesn't do EVERYthing asked at the first cue it gets hurt? And the fact that these dogs STILL continually get zapped proves that no matter the training technique, dogs are NOT errorless and WILL make MISTAKES. Even humans with the supposedly superior brain and reasoning power make mistakes like crazy. How can we expect more from our dogs than we expect from ourselves and fellow human beings??? The whole mindset of these people is infuriating - and ILLOGICAL. And often times sadistic.

This is why I am much happier now training dogs as pets for manners and basic obedience rather than competition obedience and perfect heeling, fronts and outs...

[RealPitBull]

Feb 2, 2009 18:08:47 GMT -5 bamapitbullmom said:

Feb 2, 2009 16:00:05 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

I've come to notice that a lot of shock collar trainers who insist they "have" to use the tool because "nothing else has worked" ask their dogs to do REALLY stupid things that have NOTHING to do with living with a well-mannered companion. If you can't train your sighthound to come every single time you call in a field full of rabbits maybe it's time to USE A LEASH instead of resorting to a shock collar.

Also, who wants 'total control' of another living being? How is that humane or ethical, if the dog doesn't do EVERYthing asked at the first cue it gets hurt? And the fact that these dogs STILL continually get zapped proves that no matter the training technique, dogs are NOT errorless and WILL make MISTAKES. Even humans with the supposedly superior brain and reasoning power make mistakes like crazy. How can we expect more from our dogs than we expect from ourselves and fellow human beings??? The whole mindset of these people is infuriating - and ILLOGICAL. And often times sadistic.

This is why I am much happier now training dogs as pets for manners and basic obedience rather than competition obedience and perfect heeling, fronts and outs...

OMG yes. I love competition and eventually hope to get back into it, but I do it FOR FUN and if I had to hurt my dog to win ribbons I would NOT be doing it. The competition compulsion classes I used to be in were SO stressful for the dogs and just NOT FUN.

[bamapitbullmom]

Oh tell me about it...what don't, been there, done that! Unfortunately, I *still* see it.

[amspits2007]

I don't agree with the shockers with the remotes. I use to work for a company that made them and sold them. Back when I was young and stupid.

When we first adopted pinky and snikers... pinky would always bark when left alone. So I hate to admit it but we did get her a shack bark collar. This was before I knew any better and before I found this wonderful forum. Anyway since I use to work for a company that made them etc I thought it was OK BUT i also tried it on myself first (yes on my neck/throat area). It scared me but didn't hurt the first time. The second time I tried it, it didn't do either. I knew how it felt on me but I didn't know how she would react. So i tried it on her one time. When she barked she yellped and that was the end of it I really didn't like her sad face and could only imagine how she really felt. Needless to say we threw it away and will never use it again. A few years later she only barks when she doesn't know someone trying to come in the house or at other dogs and that is usually followed with "Calm"
only because we live in a condo until we find a house. Once that happens she will be free to bark when ever she feels like it.