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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 25, 2011 20:26:47 GMT -5
I have a book by Frank Rocca where he uses the term American Bull Terrier. Rocca is a hardcore gamedog enthusiast. I find it ironic that someone was trying to twist history and using the name that was/is utilized in some unofficial capacities by gamedog people ;-)
For a little while, the breed name was listed as American (Pit) Bull Terrier but the parens where eventually removed by the registry.
And I don't think Dave is defending questionable breeding practices; he's just pointing out some facts about the dog in the picture and the general conformation of gamebred dogs. A lot of successful gamebred dogs had horrendous conformation by "show" standards. Obviously a dog needs decent form to perform a strenuous physical task, but working dogs in general just aren't as pretty as showbred dogs that conform to a standard that typically is based more on hypothetical function and not ACTUAL function.
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Post by Dave on Jan 25, 2011 22:39:20 GMT -5
If you look at other pictures of Garner's dogs many of them look like the standard. Well, that dog doesn't and you said that dog is one of his "best" prospective studs. From what I've heard I don't like this breeder and consider him a BYB. I also don't think he deserves anyone's respect if he is breeding his dogs for fighting. I know that is the history of Pit Bulls, but it is HISTORY for a reason. There are MANY breeders like Garner. They get alot of respect in their circle. And it is history, but it's also contemporary. The Missouri 500 and Ohio 200 busts show that their way is alive and thriving today. And, it's not likely to end soon, as many believe the only reason the dog exists is to be matched in the ring. They call their dogs the "true" APBT. The dogs most of us own are only a watered down shadow of the gamebred dogs. I don't mind. I'll take my little cold curs over a gamebred dog any day. Just like true herding dogs, hunting dogs, working terriers, they are not the best pets. All dogs need a job, and working or sporting dogs really do best at what they were intended for. If activity is not provided in sufficient quantities, they will find a different outlet for their energy. Most pet homes will have a difficult time with that. That's why it's said the APBT is not the dog for everyone. Back to the subject, I think that these breeders need to go away. Their method is just not acceptable, and I hope that the pressure on them keeps ramping up. There's only one way in their eyes for the dogs to prove themselves, and that's in the ring. It's unthinkable to me to waste such an intelligent and social dog's life at the end of a chain, or to end it in the ring or the end of a rope (or whatever inhumane method they use). If they want the breed to endure, they have to give up the old ways. Yeah, I kinda hijacked the thread. I just thought some issues needed a little elaboration. |
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Post by Dave on Jan 25, 2011 22:48:48 GMT -5
And I don't think Dave is defending questionable breeding practices; he's just pointing out some facts about the dog in the picture and the general conformation of gamebred dogs. A lot of successful gamebred dogs had horrendous conformation by "show" standards. Obviously a dog needs decent form to perform a strenuous physical task, but working dogs in general just aren't as pretty as showbred dogs that conform to a standard that typically is based more on hypothetical function and not ACTUAL function. Of course I'm not. But I love this breed, will probably never own another (even though I'd love a proper Dobe or Bullmastiff) and I've done alot of research, and sought first hand information at alot of shows and competitions in the past. I can appreciate the breed's history without admiring those that made it. The ADBA standard came about from game dog breeders. But those same breeders don't strive for the standard. Each may have it's own standard. That's the gist of it. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 25, 2011 22:51:53 GMT -5
And I don't think Dave is defending questionable breeding practices; he's just pointing out some facts about the dog in the picture and the general conformation of gamebred dogs. A lot of successful gamebred dogs had horrendous conformation by "show" standards. Obviously a dog needs decent form to perform a strenuous physical task, but working dogs in general just aren't as pretty as showbred dogs that conform to a standard that typically is based more on hypothetical function and not ACTUAL function. Of course I'm not. But I love this breed, will probably never own another (even though I'd love a proper Dobe or Bullmastiff) and I've done alot of research, and sought first hand information at alot of shows and competitions in the past. I can appreciate the breed's history without admiring those that made it. The ADBA standard came about from game dog breeders. But those same breeders don't strive for the standard. Each may have it's own standard. That's the gist of it.  |
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Post by michele5611 on Jan 25, 2011 22:58:55 GMT -5
well said Dave!
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Post by catstina on Jan 26, 2011 9:54:51 GMT -5
Back to the subject, I think that these breeders need to go away. Their method is just not acceptable, and I hope that the pressure on them keeps ramping up. There's only one way in their eyes for the dogs to prove themselves, and that's in the ring. It's unthinkable to me to waste such an intelligent and social dog's life at the end of a chain, or to end it in the ring or the end of a rope (or whatever inhumane method they use). If they want the breed to endure, they have to give up the old ways. Yeah, I kinda hijacked the thread. I just thought some issues needed a little elaboration. It's good to hear you say this*, then we are in agreement. Thank you for elaborating and educating me about this breeder. *or "read you type this" |
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
It's good to hear you say this*, then we are in agreement. I think I know what you were thinking. The first time I discussed breed history it was on an email list that Veronique Chesser started many years ago. Some of you may know she's the founder of PBRC. Back then she had just started out in pit bull rescue. Long story shortened, she accused me of being pro-fighting, and even suggested that I fought my dog(s) because of pictures I posted of Ivan, who had been fought and had copious scarring when I adopted him.  Several of the contributors joined in on Veronique's side, and the more I defended myself, the worse it got. I generally don't do that anymore, and that's why I had second thoughts. Thanks for being open minded. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 10:25:48 GMT -5
Dave, Veronique has accused EVERYone of being pro-dog fighting at some point or another LOL (moi included, as well as a friend of mine who works with Villa Lobos).
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Post by catstina on Jan 26, 2011 10:31:27 GMT -5
Ivan was a very handsome dog. I'm glad that you felt comfortable discussing this with all of us! I try to be open minded, but sometimes emotions take hold before logic!! I didn't think you were fighting your dogs, though, I know you love them!
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2011 10:39:12 GMT -5
Ha!! I justed rented a dvd Off The Chain, a supposed documentary about pit bull fighting, and a few minutes into it her face popped up and she was talking about something, I didn't know what because I lost all concentration at that point. I had to shut it off and just couldn't watch it. I sent it back to Netflix. I just couldn't actually look at her speaking.  |
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Post by emilys on Jan 26, 2011 10:53:11 GMT -5
Dave, Veronique has accused EVERYone of being pro-dog fighting at some point or another LOL (moi included, as well as a friend of mine who works with Villa Lobos). ah, those were the days!  and then there was olddog....  |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 10:53:19 GMT -5
Ha!! I justed rented a dvd Off The Chain, a supposed documentary about pit bull fighting, and a few minutes into it her face popped up and she was talking about something, I didn't know what because I lost all concentration at that point. I had to shut it off and just couldn't watch it. I sent it back to Netflix. I just couldn't actually look at her speaking. You actually did yourself a favor anyway because that movie was absolute torture to watch and I doubt you would have learned anything. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 10:54:46 GMT -5
Dave, Veronique has accused EVERYone of being pro-dog fighting at some point or another LOL (moi included, as well as a friend of mine who works with Villa Lobos). ah, those were the days! and then there was olddog....  Some days I think I would choose ^ over some of the idiots I deal with now. |
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2011 10:56:01 GMT -5
Dave, Veronique has accused EVERYone of being pro-dog fighting at some point or another LOL (moi included, as well as a friend of mine who works with Villa Lobos). ah, those were the days! LOL!! OMG I forgot all about olddog... |
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Post by suziriot on Jan 26, 2011 11:39:36 GMT -5
There are MANY breeders like Garner. They get alot of respect in their circle. And it is history, but it's also contemporary. The Missouri 500 and Ohio 200 busts show that their way is alive and thriving today. And, it's not likely to end soon, as many believe the only reason the dog exists is to be matched in the ring. They call their dogs the "true" APBT. The dogs most of us own are only a watered down shadow of the gamebred dogs. I don't mind. I'll take my little cold curs over a gamebred dog any day. Just like true herding dogs, hunting dogs, working terriers, they are not the best pets. All dogs need a job, and working or sporting dogs really do best at what they were intended for. If activity is not provided in sufficient quantities, they will find a different outlet for their energy. Most pet homes will have a difficult time with that. That's why it's said the APBT is not the dog for everyone. Back to the subject, I think that these breeders need to go away. Their method is just not acceptable, and I hope that the pressure on them keeps ramping up. There's only one way in their eyes for the dogs to prove themselves, and that's in the ring. It's unthinkable to me to waste such an intelligent and social dog's life at the end of a chain, or to end it in the ring or the end of a rope (or whatever inhumane method they use). If they want the breed to endure, they have to give up the old ways. Yeah, I kinda hijacked the thread. I just thought some issues needed a little elaboration. Really excellent points Dave! Working with the MO500 dogs - and of course working specifically with Dharma and the others that Mutts fostered/adopted up here in the Chicago area - certainly has been a learning experience. Dharma is different than my other dogs in a lot of ways, and I've been trying to learn what may be due to the abuse she suffered (her anxiety and confidence issues) and what is from being a "gamebred" dog. I don't know... there were A LOT of very "soft" dogs from the MO500, which is why so many of them were adoptable. But I see the same tenacity and toughness that Dharma has also in Otis, who seems pretty pure APBT and was found in a box on the side of a road.  |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 11:53:57 GMT -5
I have to tell you, I see some similarities between my first APBT who was gamebred but never subjected to abuse (he came to me at 4 months old) and Sedona who I don't believe was ever fought but was obviously at the least neglected and living on a chain.
There is something different about gamebred dogs and until you've lived with one, it's just something that you probably will never fully grasp no matter how much it's explained. They are just really unique. And although I of course am 100000000000% opposed to dog fighting, I will totally admit that losing the gamebred dog will in theory be a really sad thing for me.
I say in theory because I would rather the gamebred dog become extinct than have them subjected to the abuse they suffer.
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Post by suziriot on Jan 26, 2011 12:05:09 GMT -5
I have to tell you, I see some similarities between my first APBT who was gamebred but never subjected to abuse (he came to me at 4 months old) and Sedona who I don't believe was ever fought but was obviously at the least neglected and living on a chain. There is something different about gamebred dogs and until you've lived with one, it's just something that you probably will never fully grasp no matter how much it's explained. They are just really unique. And although I of course am 100000000000% opposed to dog fighting, I will totally admit that losing the gamebred dog will in theory be a really sad thing for me. I say in theory because I would rather the gamebred dog become extinct than have them subjected to the abuse they suffer. Completely agree. |
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2011 12:08:45 GMT -5
I would love to own a gamebred dog. But I can't buy a breeder dog when so many beautifull dogs are dying homeless in shelters. And it's only been a very recent development that gamebred dogs are available for adoption. I may get my chance one day. "But not this day." (Any LOTR fans there?  ) |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 12:12:54 GMT -5
I may get my chance one day. "But not this day." (Any LOTR fans there? ) ME ME ME!!! |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 12:13:15 GMT -5
(And Sedona is still available for adoption, Dave!  ) |
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I look forward to learning much here