|
|
Post by pittilove29 on Jan 26, 2011 17:30:56 GMT -5
well, using my definition (which btw, is not mine; it's what the dogmen cultboys of APBT-L always insisted on: gamebred only means dogs whose parents were proven game), that would mean you know a breeder who is a dogfighter, which I'm sure is not true. ADBA breeders are always accused of being, or supporting dogfighters. It's not true.. but it IS true that the ADBA has never forthrightly condemned dogfighting. Maybe it's changed.. when I was a member, the Gazette was full of dogfighting accounts, "for historic interest only". That's why I posted "If you use the old standard...." which I know you saw since you quoted it. No, the breeder is not a dog fighter and no, everybody does not use the same definition you use, including myself. Just because we don't agree on the language, or words used does not mean either of us is wrong and since I described my definition of what I see as game bred you should not be assuming I know a person who fights their dogs. Let's just leave it at that because I prefer to not debate about the words used by people since everybody has their own preferences. I also don't enjoy your debating style of reading into peoples' posts and making offensive assumptions. |
|
|
|
Post by michele5611 on Jan 26, 2011 17:55:31 GMT -5
To me a high-drive, high performance must work kind of APBT is simply put - a typical APBT.
|
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Jan 26, 2011 19:19:04 GMT -5
well, using my definition (which btw, is not mine; it's what the dogmen cultboys of APBT-L always insisted on: gamebred only means dogs whose parents were proven game), that would mean you know a breeder who is a dogfighter, which I'm sure is not true. ADBA breeders are always accused of being, or supporting dogfighters. It's not true.. but it IS true that the ADBA has never forthrightly condemned dogfighting. Maybe it's changed.. when I was a member, the Gazette was full of dogfighting accounts, "for historic interest only". That's why I posted "If you use the old standard...." which I know you saw since you quoted it. No, the breeder is not a dog fighter and no, everybody does not use the same definition you use, including myself. Just because we don't agree on the language, or words used does not mean either of us is wrong and since I described my definition of what I see as game bred you should not be assuming I know a person who fights their dogs. Let's just leave it at that because I prefer to not debate about the words used by people since everybody has their own preferences. I also don't enjoy your debating style of reading into peoples' posts and making offensive assumptions. meh. That's not what I wrote... defensive much? But if you're going to talk about game/gamebred dogs and the ADBA, whatever.... |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 19:21:38 GMT -5
I think that's a little too stringent of a definition of gamebred. I disagree  I call the others "gamebred type dogs".  Do you want my head to explode?! I mean, really! Gamebred to me simply means dogs out of parents/grandparents/stock that were fighting dogs/used in the pit. I think the old adage of "the only deadgame dog is a dead one" applies here - how can you REALLY know a dog is GAME to the point of NEVER quitting? I think most old timey dogmen are breeding dogs that have shown some level of fighting ability and some LEVEL of gameness, or from lines that have very recently proven game to one degree or another. Or out of a bitch that is out of tested game stock. Hope I'm explaining myself clearly...... |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 19:23:11 GMT -5
well, using my definition (which btw, is not mine; it's what the dogmen cultboys of APBT-L always insisted on: gamebred only means dogs whose parents were proven game), that would mean you know a breeder who is a dogfighter, which I'm sure is not true. ADBA breeders are always accused of being, or supporting dogfighters. It's not true.. but it IS true that the ADBA has never forthrightly condemned dogfighting. Maybe it's changed.. when I was a member, the Gazette was full of dogfighting accounts, "for historic interest only". That's why I posted "If you use the old standard...." which I know you saw since you quoted it. No, the breeder is not a dog fighter and no, everybody does not use the same definition you use, including myself. Just because we don't agree on the language, or words used does not mean either of us is wrong and since I described my definition of what I see as game bred you should not be assuming I know a person who fights their dogs. Let's just leave it at that because I prefer to not debate about the words used by people since everybody has their own preferences. I also don't enjoy your debating style of reading into peoples' posts and making offensive assumptions. Hey Brook, just fyi, there is really only one definition of gamebred and that's dogs out of stock used for fighting.  There really is no other way of using the term gamebred properly. I can see how someone could have read your post and assumed you were talking about someone who had fighting dogs/got their dogs from a dog fighter. An ADBA-style APBT may LOOK like the old fashioned gamebred Pit Bull, but might be as many generations removed from the pit as my AmStaff. I do see what you were, saying, though, and I understand now how you were using the term. |
|
|
|
Post by michele5611 on Jan 26, 2011 19:25:31 GMT -5
thanks for explaining all clearly Mary!
|
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 19:26:13 GMT -5
Can we all take a deep breath and just chill a sec? I brought this topic up which I know can ruffle feathers but I realllllllllllly only did so because I know this forum can handle it and remain polite and composed.
/mod hat OFF
|
|
shay19
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 394
|
Post by shay19 on Jan 26, 2011 19:39:04 GMT -5
I agree with what Mary said, and I actually own one of those dogs. Aida is from a line of dogs that my step dad was breeding in his younger days for fighting. Only the good fighters were kept for his breeding.
Her great grandpa was used as a fight/guard dog and lived all but his last 2 to 3 years of his life in a chain in front of a trailer. Aida's mother Ella is from that same line of dogs, I can't say much for her father as I don't know his history.
But this is all from stories that my step dad told us growing up, the only reason I really believe them is because so many of my step dads friends agree with the stories. It could all turn out false which is why I don't say it much as I don't want to be made out to be someone that spreads false information. But I trust you all here and just wanted to put some of my info out. I hope that made sense lol.
Also just so everyone he no longer fights them, he learned right from wrong and changed. He only tells us the stories in hopes that we'll learn from the mistakes he made. Luckily my siblings and myself have all been animal lovers from the get go so it's not likely that it'll happen anyway
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2011 19:56:40 GMT -5
there is really only one definition of gamebred and that's dogs out of stock used for fighting. There really is no other way of using the term gamebred properly. There you go. And, there's no way to look at a dog and say, "that is a game-bred dog." It's not manifested physically in any way, shape or form. Game is in the dog's head. And there's only one way to find out if the dog is game, according to fanciers of the original purpose of the dog. |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 20:00:46 GMT -5
there is really only one definition of gamebred and that's dogs out of stock used for fighting. There really is no other way of using the term gamebred properly. There you go. And, there's no way to look at a dog and say, "that is a game-bred dog." It's not manifested physically in any way, shape or form. Game is in the dog's head. And there's only one way to find out if the dog is game, according to fanciers of the original purpose of the dog. Exactly. |
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2011 20:02:42 GMT -5
Can we all take a deep breath and just chill a sec? I brought this topic up which I know can ruffle feathers but I realllllllllllly only did so because I know this forum can handle it and remain polite and composed. /mod hat OFF Not to worry. It's a really good thread. This is no worse than my intro. ;D Now, excuse me but someone is waiting to play "FUZZY!!!"  |
|
|
|
Post by michele5611 on Jan 26, 2011 20:03:09 GMT -5
I think we all agree that a dog is not gamebred based on its appearance.
|
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jan 26, 2011 20:03:10 GMT -5
well, I'm going to go a little unconventional about the whole "game(bred) dog=uncontrollable dog-aggression" thing. I really don't think there's a strong correlation, especially considering what we now know about the fear-basis for most aggression. And we certainly know from our history that the dogmen didn't necessarily value a dog that was over-the-top aggressive outside of the pit... that behavior was a waste of energy. Many (supposedly) of the best fighting dogs were indifferent to non-challenging dogs outside of the pit. As far as behavior at ADBA shows, where handlers allow/encourage their dogs to act-out at other dogs, that means NOTHING about any true "gameness". I believe the AKC/UKC show people never wanted their ASTs/APBTs to "spar" in the conformation ring, unlike other terriers, because that kind of behavior wasn't desirable (and not just because it related to dogfighting heritage). A dog is hard to handle/dog aggressive for a whole variety of reasons, including its pedigree. The term "gamebred" is pretty meaningless today anyway; the breeding of a dog has only a certain relationship to its behavior... which is why very very few APBTs really were truly "game" however "gamebred" they might have been. The only correct definition of "gamebred" is "bred from 2 proven game dogs"... and almost no one has such a dog. Thanks Em, because that is almost exactly what I was going to write. I wish we had a "nodding my head in agreement" emoticon, LOL! I admit that I don't know much about the true definition of "gamebred" or about show standards. I'm a rescuer, lol! Most of us on RPBF - especially us rescue people - agree that APBTs are not for everyone. And I would go even farther to say that bust dogs that have lingering issues due to abuse/fighting are right for even fewer people than that. But like Em said, being gamebred and being DA are not necessarily related. I also completely agree that most DA is fear based aggression. |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2011 20:04:45 GMT -5
I third the notion that most DA is fear/defense based, in fact that is essentially what aggression is.
|
|
|
|
Post by catstina on Jan 26, 2011 20:52:04 GMT -5
Can we talk about LOTR again instead of being mad at each other? J/K!
I have completely lost track of this thread and it's making my caffeine addled brain spin!!
|
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jan 26, 2011 21:22:48 GMT -5
Discussions like these are one of the many, many reasons I love this forum. We've been able to discuss some pretty controversial stuff over the years. I even learned to appreciate Emily's, shall we say... blunt... style! Like Mary always says, we're not fluffy! As long as we're respectful, it's all good! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by sugar on Jan 27, 2011 9:17:33 GMT -5
Can we talk about LOTR again instead of being mad at each other? J/K! I have completely lost track of this thread and it's making my caffeine addled brain spin!!  |
|
|
|
Post by loverocksalot on Jan 27, 2011 10:51:45 GMT -5
Wow I just read this for the first time from beginning to end. What is this thread about?
I just got a lesson on Game Bred I think.
The thing I find interesting is the dogs that are built in a game bred fashion are not what the general public perceives as a Pit Bull.
I looked at Tom Garners website, some of them look strange and most of them look just like the Pit Bull Mixes as they are called that sit in our local shelters.
Just curious who buys these dogs? Because many I have come across who bought a pit bull either have what they call a razor or a mastiff size Pit bull.
No one ever accepts that Rocky is an American Pit Bull Terrier they always question what else he has.
From what I am learning from this forum and history which I still want to learn a whole lot more about. My dog Rocky is ADBA standards his snout may be a bit too long for standards. He is very athletically built naturally. He has some build for the amount of exercise he gets. If I started to exercise with him more he would be massive muscles. He has virtually no drive what so ever. He will chase a cat or a bird out of the yard but gives up easily. But when it comes to work he gets very into it. Of course because he likes making pay. (food) He could definitely be a good working dog.
So where do we find this true history. Like I am hearing the "Nanny Dog" thing should not be used. Was there such a period? History is mostly all verbal stories right? How do we know what is true. Is there a book or website that can be recommended. I really want to do research this. I am very interested in the breed history but I want my history straight.
Please give me references. I want to get my library ordering books. And I have a plan to do a program on history of the American Pit Bull terrier. My library has the most awesome programs. People come from all over even NYC to attend programs. But I must be confident that I know what I am talking about. And I want to get some people to the program that would otherwise not come if they knew it was pro pit bull. So I have to think about how to make it more of a dog history thing then go on to the American Pit Bull Terrier. IDK but I will need some input and help on this.
Of course I also want it to involve some kind of fund raising. History and Education. THrow it at me. Please.
|
|
|
|
Post by catstina on Jan 27, 2011 11:59:49 GMT -5
Very good post and great questions, I would be glad to know the answers as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 27, 2011 14:30:47 GMT -5
Emily could give you a good response re: the Nanny Dog thing. That was a name originally applied to Staffordshire Bull Terriers but it is my understanding that even Stafford people don't use it/don't like it. The RPB history page is a good place to start (although I need to update a couple things on it). It also has a small bibliography. www.realpitbull.com/history.htmlIn terms of history that's in depth and intelligent, the Dieter Fleig books and the Mark Homan book are the way to go. Some of the old reprints of books written by Colby and Armitage are interesting in terms of getting terminology and history straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. The APBT is a pretty well-documented breed. There is lots of information out there. |
|
There really is no other way of using the term gamebred properly. I can see how someone could have read your post and assumed you were talking about someone who had fighting dogs/got their dogs from a dog fighter. 
I look forward to learning much here