Sgt Stubby

[RealPitBull]

While many people involved in Pit Bull advocacy insist Sgt Stubby was a "Pit Bull" or American Pit Bull Terrier, my personal belief is that he was not, and was a Boston Terrier (old fashioned) or possibly mix. I'm not sure when people started referring to Stubby as an American Pit Bull Terrier, but he not only did not LOOK like one, he is identified NO where from sources *of the time* as a "Pit Bull" or APBT, at least that I have found yet.

I'm quoting below an excerpt from a Wikipedia page, which I almost never use for "proof" of anything, but more as a topic jump-off point. I also want to point out that although the article says that "bull dog" was a term synonymous with APBT, it absolutely was NOT at the time, and could have applied to any number of dogs, or referred to a simple type.

It's been my opinion for a while that Stubby was a Boston or Old Boston Bulldog. Which is similarly related to Pit Bulls but absolutely is NOT a Pit Bull.

"Stubby was found on the Yale campus in 1917 by John Robert Conroy. He was of unknown breed; some sources speculated that he was part Boston Terrier and part Pit Bull, while other sources state that he was in fact a pure bred Olde Boston Bulldog[1], and his obituary described him as a "Bull dog" (which was at the time synonymous with "American Bull Terrier" and "Pit Bull terrier").[2] Stubby marched with Conroy and even learned an approximate salute. When Conroy's unit shipped out to France, Stubby was smuggled aboard the transport SS Minnesota."

[RealPitBull]

Here is Sgt Stubby the so-called American Pit Bull Terrier:





And here are several pictures of Old Boston Bulldogs (the ORIGINAL Boston Terrier) from the time:





^Guess what? That is Helen Keller with her Old Boston Bulldog.

[loverocksalot]

Well this is disappointing. I want him to be a pit bull mix. I read somewhere that he was a pit bull mix? But I also remember going to a history program recently at my library, it was a program on the house that JP Morgan built which is on the lake here and has a ton of history. ANyway there was a little girl with a dog in many of the photos. I was so interested in these photos that when question time came I was able to ask. What kind of dog is in the photo. He looked as if he could be a pit bull mix with Boston. He looked bigger and broad chestier then today's Boston face not as pushed in. To my surprise that little girl turned out to be an old lady in the audience. Who answered my question and told the dog was a Boston Terrier they always had Boston Terriers.

[RealPitBull]

I want to point out Stubby's bulbous eyes, pushed in snout, undershot jaw, docked tail and cropped ears - ALL very prominent features associated with Boston Terriers / Old Boston Bulldogs. These were and are NOT features of the APBT.

Why am I bringing all this up? Because there is an enormous amount of misinformation about Pit Bulls (APBTs) being passed off as fact. The Pit Bull world has turned into a game of telephone where no one bothers to fact-check, research and educate themselves.

Website after website pops up with repeated, re-vamped, and made up informtion about Pit Bulls. Hardly any newbie advocates bother to go back and read original documentation, bother to research the history of a breed they supposedly love and "educate" on.

It is wonderful that people want to help Pit Bulls, and their intent is good. But breed facts and history have become irrelevent to people. As a breed lover, someone who admires and respects the dogs, and has a reverence for FACT and historical accuracy, it bothers me when I see so much material out there that has become New School mainstream Pit Bull mythology ("positive" or not).

I used to argue myths with people who hated Pit Bulls and wanted to see them banned. Now I argue myths from Pit Bull people who are fighting BSL. The intent is good and there, but the breed is being lost in the process, anyway.

[RealPitBull]

CA, those are "original" Boston Terriers which were not as dramatic in terms of looks as today's Bostons. I never refer to Stubby as a Pit Bull anywhere, because to me it is very obvious he is not.

[loverocksalot]

I will admit though when I looked at articles I too thought he only looked to have a small amount of pit bull mix he looked predominately something else. I also thought I read that they have no documentation on his breed just speculation. Although I thought I did read some where that he had a parent that was of bull breed. IDK now I have something to do today since I am stuck home in this stinky storm on my Birthday.

[tjamison2001]

The first thing that stood out looking at the pic was his jaw and eyes didn't look right.

[loverocksalot]

His obituary list him as dog of no pedegree
www.ct.gov/mil/cwp/view.asp?a=1351&q=257958

BTW this comes from a site I used in a story I wrote about Rocky where I talked about noted Pit Bulls.
www.ct.gov/mil/cwp/view.asp?a=1351&q=257892

[RealPitBull]

More pictures.....tell me, is Stubby a Pit Bull or a Boston Terrier? (Particularly scroll down to the dogs listed as first Boston Terriers, first champions, etc. MANY people have confused early Bostons with Pit Bulls. The problem is that the history of several breeds in their formative years was very similar in terms of the stock they sprang up from, their places of origin, and their looks. SO unless you really dig, follow pedigrees closely, etc, you can very easily take things out of context, or run off on a tangent off of a simple picture:

designerbostons.homestead.com/HISTORY.html

[loverocksalot]

Yup that dog with the little girl in the historical photo looked just like those. I really thought it may have been a pit bull but the little girl now a very old lady said Boston terrier. And some of those photos including the dog in the fire truck I have seen on historical Pit Bull and AM Staff sites as photos of dogs from that period. During that period the APBT or AmSTAff whatever it was known as look strikingly like Rocky. I am talking about photos of full bred pedigree like Colby dogs.
Very interesting stuff. But what we can say is that this proves how dogs that look like pit bulls are pit bulls to most. That is the whole problem.

[RealPitBull]

Another big problem is that in some circles, "pit bull" means absolutely NOTHING other than "looks". So for those people, they can basically claim "pit bull" whenever they feel like it. Dogos are a biggy right now. More and more people are telling me those are "pit bulls".

Soooooo many "pit bull advocates" who talk about a breed they love and advocate for and rescue, are actually not even concerned with a REAL breed - the APBT. They focus on NOTHING other than looks. Why they insist on saying the do "breed advocacy" is beyond me. They don't.

[loverocksalot]

The 1926 obituary in the New York Times first says:Stubby is dead. He was only a dog and unpedigreed at that,
Later it says:

Early in life Stubby longed for a career. Realizing the value of education, the brindle and white "bull terrier" abandoned his nomadic life for that of a student. Selecting Yale University as his alma mater, he was soon recognized there was a prodigy. His progress, however, was interrupted.

He is called a mongrel in the state of Con military history page. I am going to read it again. As I don't recall any reference to breed.
I already posted link above but here it is again. www.ct.gov/mil/cwp/view.asp?a=1351&q=257892

[loverocksalot]

Feb 1, 2011 9:10:41 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

Another big problem is that in some circles, "pit bull" means absolutely NOTHING other than "looks". So for those people, they can basically claim "pit bull" whenever they feel like it. Dogos are a biggy right now. More and more people are telling me those are "pit bulls".

Soooooo many "pit bull advocates" who talk about a breed they love and advocate for and rescue, are actually not even concerned with a REAL breed - the APBT. They focus on NOTHING other than looks. Why they insist on saying the do "breed advocacy" is beyond me. They don't.

OMG yeah this is what gets me on fire when I am asked the "awe he is so cute what kind of dog is he" and then after I say it, I get the Really? He does not look like a pit bull. What is he mixed with. He looks more like a.... Do you want to hear the list of what I have heard?
Or the description I get of what a pit bull looks like and why he does not.
It is actually starting to piss me off. I finally get the guts to call him an APBT and I get people telling me he is not. When I said Am Staff usually get nothing for comments. Occasional return comments of oh yeah that explains it he is the American type. What ever that means? That usually comes from people who have owned or do own what they think is a full bred Pit Bull. They go on to explain that their dog weighs 100 lbs or more. There seems to be quite a few of those in my neighborhood.
But then their are those who fear the breed like one of the guys that works in the post office. He does not want Rocky to be an APBT cause he likes Rocky and Rocky is the best behaved dog to visit the post office. He insist Rocky is too tall and lean. A pit bull is a short legged stocky killing machine in his eyes.
Wow this is mind boggling I feel my blood pressure rising. I better go eat breakfast and take my meds. LOL

[RealPitBull]

This was around the time that bulldogs and bull-n-terriers were all forming into unique/specific breeds. It is not surprising that he is not referred to as anything other than a mix or a bull dog, or a bull terrier. There is no reference to him being a Pit-anything, and based on his physical appearance, he looks like a Boston. There is nothing about him that looks like a Pit Bull, to me.

Thanks for digging this stuff up, Carolann! It's all very interesting to me.

I wanted to post a couple images of APBTs from the late 1800's- early 1900s. The breed was VERY much already established type-wise (aka looks-wise). They looked considerably different from the docked-tailed, undershot-jawed, bulbous-eyed Stubby.

Also, a source of confusion stems from the fact that Boston was a hotbed of dog fighting and the APBT breed has much history in the New England area. Bostons sprang up from bulldogs and terriers, like the APBT - but they are a totally different breed, and by the time Stubby was around, were very definitely a distinct and seperate breed. Bostons are another breed that sprang from this vague category of "bull and terrier" stock, but they sprang up independently of APBTs and were bred for a completely different purpose and to a completely different standard.

In other words, they are NOT Pit Bulls.

[loverocksalot]

Yes. One thing I recently saw a dog that was a boston Mix. They had both parents who were small dogs I cant remember but one was a pure boston and the other pure I can remember. I want to say pug but not sure. Anyway the mix of the two turned out to look like a Pit Bull Puppy although it was a full grown boston mix.
I also was about to post a link on the history which I am going to do now so not to have the back and forth. Although it would now be connected to this also.

[emilys]

and the RCA dog? :-)

[RealPitBull]

Feb 1, 2011 20:34:29 GMT -5 emilys said:

and the RCA dog? :-)

Doesn't look like an APBT to me. But what do I know?!? ???

[loverocksalot]

I believe the RCA dog is not APBT from what I remember that dog was around in late 1800's and was a bull terrier/fox terrier.
That is one of the dogs people often say Rocky reminds them of.

[RealPitBull]

That dog was TINNNNNNNNNNNY as far as I can tell. I think Fox/Jack Russel Terrier-ish dog.

[michele5611]

What about Buster Brown's dog Tige...wasn't he a pit bull?