Cesar Millan - Pls Read!

[bamapitbullmom]

The reason I am here and the reason I do what I do (pro bono training) is not to prove *I* am right or any specific method is the only way to go. I'm here and I do what I do b/c I see a real need for helping average pet owners who struggle with teaching manners and basic obedience and who have behavioral issues which I can help.

Not to mention canine behavior and training is my obsession.

Like you, Chloe, I have tons of experience and a strong background in training. This came from the desire and innate ability since childhood. Neither of my parents are dog savvy yet I still managed to gain the expertise in this field. I was never a breeder but did own and show and train Rottweilers and various other power breeds and not-so-powerful breeds.

It was never as much as implied that you harm your dog though I will say that the vast majority of clients I see and on the street dog owners who hail CM's techniques have a skewed idea that they must dominate and physically control their dogs, in my opinion, that is a damaging to the relationship that they could easily achieve otherwise. As a trainer, it's frustrating to not only promote better and more effective methods but also to dismiss some of those they mimic on tv.

I also absolutely agree that not every method works for every dog which is why I don't promote ONE method. One method may work fabulously for one dog for one behavior and another better for another dog.

There is no cookie cutter, foolproof, guaranteed method for each dog and that's one reason I have an issue with the kind of handling and techniques CM promotes.

Alpha rolls are used by him across the board with any dog which does not seem to fall in line. But there are so many more common sense approaches to working with dogs which do not deminish trust and are less stressful. Any dog under stress and feeling rightfully defensive is not a canine with the ability or focus on learning.

Again, CM is NOT a trainer. You cannot train a dog with physical domination. Management is completely different from training. Training is teaching and there is strong science behind training and methods of teaching. The science regarding dynamics and wolf packs (and dogs are not wolves) simply do not apply to domesticated dogs as pets.

Training dogs is an evolving thing, new discoveries and breakthroughs are made all the time. But one thing I have noticed about CM is that he never evolves, never grows. You see the same things applied in each and every show. Mostly flooding and physical manhandling.

Anyone who believes that CM's techniques "teach" makes me wonder how they dismiss the methods used for not only dogs (though successfully applied day in and day out) but for many other species such as dolphins, orcas, apes, etc. If scientifically proven learning holds little water, how is it that these wild animals and mammals are able to effectively be trained complex behaviors without physical force, corrections or "dominance"?

As I said, I do not disagree with everything that he does but I certainly would not approach his cases in the same manner most of the time. Some of the episodes I have seen have sent chills up my spine not only b/c of the treatment and diagnosis but b/c the techniques employed will manifest and suppress warning behaviors which is exceptionally dangerous.

I also must address the statements made here as far as "do what works". I do not condone a "means to an end" type of training or modification methods. Just b/c something works doesn't mean that it's the best avenue to take.

My preferred methods of working with a dog is to create a dog which thinks and makes better decisions. These creatures are not basic. They are very complex and harbor amazing ability to work things out if given the proper foundation and opportunities to make such choices.

As far as Chloe's statements about choosing CM's methods and that just b/c some people don't agree, again, I beg of you to look further into the training world beyond what's on tv.

I have no idea how your mother trains, what's important to you, what exact methods you employ, your views on behavior modification or anything so it's difficult for me to understand your level of behavioral understanding at this point. And I certainly would never accuse anyone of abusing their dogs without firsthand knowledge. The issue with many of the people I personally consult with is that they have very little knowledge or understanding of basic dog behavior or body language and are mortified when they learn that they have been causing undue stress and promoting further undesired behaviors from their pets.

Most of us, if not all of us who consistently warn against CM's techniques are heavily involved in the dog world, attend seminars, workshops, conferences, read everything out there regarding behavior and see results in high numbers consistently with the methods proven by science. Again, there are several methods in our toolboxes which prove time and time again to be extremely effective and enduring.

We aren't this involved because we want to be proven right but because we are wholeheartedly dedicated to the welfare of companion dogs and the advancement in pet dog training. We care about the dogs, we care about the owners and know that a difference can be made and reasoning to back it up.

Please do look further and read and learn about alternatives to some of CM's techniques.

A few great starting points online are:

www.clickersolutions.com

www.dogstardaily.com

www.deesdogs.com (training articles)

www.diamondsintheruff.com

www.nerdbook.com

www.trulydogfriendly.com

[Chloe]

Feb 25, 2009 19:31:33 GMT -5 bamapitbullmom said:

The reason I am here and the reason I do what I do (pro bono training) is not to prove *I* am right or any specific method is the only way to go. I'm here and I do what I do b/c I see a real need for helping average pet owners who struggle with teaching manners and basic obedience and who have behavioral issues which I can help.

Not to mention canine behavior and training is my obsession.

Like you, Chloe, I have tons of experience and a strong background in training. This came from the desire and innate ability since childhood. Neither of my parents are dog savvy yet I still managed to gain the expertise in this field. I was never a breeder but did own and show and train Rottweilers and various other power breeds and not-so-powerful breeds.

It was never as much as implied that you harm your dog though I will say that the vast majority of clients I see and on the street dog owners who hail CM's techniques have a skewed idea that they must dominate and physically control their dogs, in my opinion, that is a damaging to the relationship that they could easily achieve otherwise. As a trainer, it's frustrating to not only promote better and more effective methods but also to dismiss some of those they mimic on tv.

I also absolutely agree that not every method works for every dog which is why I don't promote ONE method. One method may work fabulously for one dog for one behavior and another better for another dog.

There is no cookie cutter, foolproof, guaranteed method for each dog and that's one reason I have an issue with the kind of handling and techniques CM promotes.

Alpha rolls are used by him across the board with any dog which does not seem to fall in line. But there are so many more common sense approaches to working with dogs which do not deminish trust and are less stressful. Any dog under stress and feeling rightfully defensive is not a canine with the ability or focus on learning.

Again, CM is NOT a trainer. You cannot train a dog with physical domination. Management is completely different from training. Training is teaching and there is strong science behind training and methods of teaching. The science regarding dynamics and wolf packs (and dogs are not wolves) simply do not apply to domesticated dogs as pets.

Training dogs is an evolving thing, new discoveries and breakthroughs are made all the time. But one thing I have noticed about CM is that he never evolves, never grows. You see the same things applied in each and every show. Mostly flooding and physical manhandling.

Anyone who believes that CM's techniques "teach" makes me wonder how they dismiss the methods used for not only dogs (though successfully applied day in and day out) but for many other species such as dolphins, orcas, apes, etc. If scientifically proven learning holds little water, how is it that these wild animals and mammals are able to effectively be trained complex behaviors without physical force, corrections or "dominance"?

As I said, I do not disagree with everything that he does but I certainly would not approach his cases in the same manner most of the time. Some of the episodes I have seen have sent chills up my spine not only b/c of the treatment and diagnosis but b/c the techniques employed will manifest and suppress warning behaviors which is exceptionally dangerous.

I also must address the statements made here as far as "do what works". I do not condone a "means to an end" type of training or modification methods. Just b/c something works doesn't mean that it's the best avenue to take.

My preferred methods of working with a dog is to create a dog which thinks and makes better decisions. These creatures are not basic. They are very complex and harbor amazing ability to work things out if given the proper foundation and opportunities to make such choices.

As far as Chloe's statements about choosing CM's methods and that just b/c some people don't agree, again, I beg of you to look further into the training world beyond what's on tv.

I have no idea how your mother trains, what's important to you, what exact methods you employ, your views on behavior modification or anything so it's difficult for me to understand your level of behavioral understanding at this point. And I certainly would never accuse anyone of abusing their dogs without firsthand knowledge. The issue with many of the people I personally consult with is that they have very little knowledge or understanding of basic dog behavior or body language and are mortified when they learn that they have been causing undue stress and promoting further undesired behaviors from their pets.

Most of us, if not all of us who consistently warn against CM's techniques are heavily involved in the dog world, attend seminars, workshops, conferences, read everything out there regarding behavior and see results in high numbers consistently with the methods proven by science. Again, there are several methods in our toolboxes which prove time and time again to be extremely effective and enduring.

We aren't this involved because we want to be proven right but because we are wholeheartedly dedicated to the welfare of companion dogs and the advancement in pet dog training. We care about the dogs, we care about the owners and know that a difference can be made and reasoning to back it up.

Please do look further and read and learn about alternatives to some of CM's techniques.

A few great starting points online are:

www.clickersolutions.com

www.dogstardaily.com

www.deesdogs.com (training articles)

www.diamondsintheruff.com

www.nerdbook.com

www.trulydogfriendly.com

I wasnt saying you accused me of abusing my dog, I just wanted to make it clear that I didnt and that I dont consider CM's ways, abusive.
I havent "dismissed" anyone else's ways of training, as stated before I do use other methods as well.

Thanks for all the info though.

[bamapitbullmom]

Chloe~ It may help if you explain a little about what type of techniques you use with your dogs and why. "Why" meaning what behaviors do they present which you feel the need to change.

I know that you didn't think I was accusing you of abusing your dogs, I made that clear b/c those of us who truly see the dog's reactions and responses in the episodes *do* see stress signs, sometimes very, very intense, many appeasement gestures and calming signals which always indicate "abuse" in my opinion.

These signs can be extremely subtle but to the trained eye, speaks volumes about a dog's ability to respond to handling and training.

Nearly every single dog on the show displays heightened stress signals and that to me makes his methods not worth promoting. Training should be enjoyable, fun and motivating. Not scary, fear inducing and stressful.

Personally, I do feel that you have dismissed science-based training methods simply by not learning more about them in order to make an educated decision about what methods exist.

It's important to learn about what you are not familiar with, disagree with as well as what you employ in order to make choices based on information.

[snipe]

I also must address the statements made here as far as "do what works". I do not condone a "means to an end" type of training or modification methods. Just b/c something works doesn't mean that it's the best avenue to take.

Alright, I did not mean it like that. I too do not condone the dominance theory, and agree the whole "just b/c it works doesn't mean we should do it" thing. But I just meant that every person needs to find out what works with their dog, as long as it is humane and respectful to the animal. sorry if that was confusing the first time.

Again, CM is NOT a trainer. You cannot train a dog with physical domination. Management is completely different from training. Training is teaching and there is strong science behind training and methods of teaching.

he is managing right?

[bamapitbullmom]

Feb 25, 2009 23:11:53 GMT -5 snipe said:

he is managing right?

I'm not sure what term I would use to describe what he does. ???

[snipe]

just this sentence:

"
Again, CM is NOT a trainer. You cannot train a dog with physical domination. Management is completely different from training. Training is teaching and there is strong science behind training and methods of teaching."

i was assuming he is managing the behavior for a short amount of time, or long amount of time. but training would be teaching impulse control, what is right/wrong things like that

[RealPitBull]

Feb 25, 2009 18:04:33 GMT -5 Chloe said:

Feb 25, 2009 15:51:27 GMT -5 andreacassel said:

I agree Mary, because all that does is get us back to the "why do we hurt animals when we are training them - because we can" theory of dog training.

Just to make myself clear, I dont hurt my animals. I dont kick her, strangle her, pinch her or do anything else to her that causes her pain. I dont use scare tactic's either. I just teach her, with love, discipline, consistency and praise. I dont tell her she's doing something right when she's not and I dont hurt or scare her for doing something wrong. When she gets it right, she gets lots of praise and sometimes even a treat. When she gets it wrong, I make her do it again the right way and praise her for it.

This idea that people who use CM's ways hurt their pets is crazy to me. Of coarse there's people who do it wrong and probably do cause pain, but those who do it correctly, do not. Any method used wrong can cause pain, fear or anxiety. I'm sure you could even find someone out there who screwed up their dog using clicker training that doesnt mean clicker training is bad, it just means not everyone knows how to properly do it.
I like clicker training too and I also use it.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I was really wondering what techniques of Millan's you use. His main method involves using a lot of P+ . This is the reason myself and others have an issue with him - because it has been proven that P+ is very detrimental and has all kinds of side effects. And it's kind of hard to justify it's use when there are kinder, gentler, more effective methods that rely mostly on R+.

I also really hope you read the books that Bama recommended - EVERY dog trainer should read those.

[RealPitBull]

Feb 25, 2009 23:24:34 GMT -5 snipe said:

just this sentence:

"
Again, CM is NOT a trainer. You cannot train a dog with physical domination. Management is completely different from training. Training is teaching and there is strong science behind training and methods of teaching."

i was assuming he is managing the behavior for a short amount of time, or long amount of time. but training would be teaching impulse control, what is right/wrong things like that

I guess you could consider it supression of behavior. He manhandles dogs, pushes them around, pins them, jerks them, and floods them in order to eliminate the exhibition of behavior or force the dog to do something he was afraid of doing. Since humans are stronger (well some, anyway) than dogs, this stuff works in some cases. Try the same thing with another species and you'd probably end up dead. Dogs are so so so forgiving. Breaks my heart thinking about what people do to them. Anyway, Millan's method can very often backfire because it creates more fear and stress in the dogs which can lead to aggression, more fear, and more stress. Just because a behavior is temporarily supressed doesn't mean the inclination to perform that behavior is gone. It's just hidden for the moment.

Millan uses what's termed 'positive punishment' (P+), which means you DO something to the dog in order to get the dog to STOP doing something. Dog lunges, you jerk the dog to ge the dog to stop lunging. It has been proven that P+ causes all kinds of nasty side effects.

Here is a short list: www.realpitbull.com/aversives.html

There is also a book called Coercion and It's Fallout by Murray Sidman which I recommend for anyone interested in looking deeper.

[RealPitBull]

And P.S. Chloe, I think you know, but just in case, no one means to make you feel 'attacked' or like you have to defend yourself. I don't think (and I doubt anyone else does) you are an abusive or bad owner. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the topics in this thread.

[bamapitbullmom]

I second that!

Chloe~ I absolutely am simply very interested in your views. My intention here is not to "lure you over to the dark side" b/c you say you use various methods, including positive reinforcement.

My curiousity is what it is about CM which creates almost a cult following and (in some owners) an absolute refusal to consider alternatives.

I understand that you shouldn't speak for the masses, but please do elaborate specifically on what techniques you personally use with your dogs and what results you get.

This is a topic which many of us R+ have difficulty truly getting an insider's point of view.

[Chloe]

O.k. here it goes.

I dont understand how you can say that I dismiss other ways of training when I have said many times that I use lots of different training techniques other then CM's. Can you please explain that.
I will tell you all the different techniques I use on my dogs below.
I use many voice commands, no, sit, stay, come etc. I use hand signals, for wait, come, sit, down, stay etc. I use treats as positive enforcement ie: clicker training. I use lots and lots of praise ie: good girl and lots of petting. The methods of CMs that I use are the bite on the side of her neck (2 fingers together and a little poke) it doesn't hurt her, just gets her attention. I use the bump occasionally while out on walks. I do not kick her, I bump her. I understand that maybe you have seen people use it as a kick but I do not.
Chloe doesn't have any behavioral issues like the dogs that are on CMs show. The only thing she does that we wish she didn't is chews up everything. She's done this since we brought her home, we have found that if she walks/jogs/runs (she does all 3) on her treadmill for 1 hr. everyday, she isn't destructive.
The only time I use the bite, is if she is doing something she shouldn't be doing. ie: trying to take food from my 5 yr. old, or trying to climb in companies lap while they are sitting on the couch, if they are on the floor they are fair game!
As stated before, I grew up around dogs, at dog shows and at dog training classes, my mom is a professional dog trainer she learned what she knows by one of the best trainers in the state of Colorado. (Her boss, Sally Terroux with Terroux Kennels is also used to testify in court cases involving dangerous dogs, bite cases and so on). I learned everything I know from my mom and her boss so I do know what to look for or the signs of a stressed out dog, an aggressive dog, a scared dog and a happy dog. Chloe is not a stressed out or aggressive dog. She's happy and relaxed.
I've never had to use the extreme methods that CM has had to use, I've never had to deal 1st hand with a dog that's trying to eat me.
I dont mind discussing this with you but I do mind that you keep saying that I'm dismissing all other training techniques, when clearly I cannot be dismissing them if I use them as well. I am open to other ways of training but I still like CM and I will still use the techniques of his that I am currently using.
I think it's clear that I'm not one of those owners that refuses to use any other way to train a dog, again, I use more then CM's ways, but just in case I wanted to put that out there. I dont think me liking CM and using some of his techniques is "cult like" because again, I use other methods as well.
The results I get with Chloe when I use the bite, lets say when she's trying to take food out of my daughters hand, is I give her a little poke and use the sound chhh that CM uses and she quits, immediately. She doesn't duck down, cry out, run away, she just quits, stares at me and wags her tail. Same as when we use it when she's trying to climb her way into our guests lap (which she only does to 2 of our friends because they let her do whatever she wants to do, she knows better with all of our other friends because they dont) we give her the bite and she quits, she settles down. That's that.
The bump I only use while out on walks, I dont have to do this often at all, and again I assure you I do not kick her. It only happens when we are walking by a yard with another dog. She is not dog aggressive at all, she just gets a little bit excited. She will start pulling over towards the yard and whining, if voice commands dont work, which sometimes they do, I give her a little bump, not a kick and she's back where she needs to be and we continue on our way.
I hope this answers all your questions, I tried to make sure I addressed everything but it's possible that I may have missed a thing or two.

[bamapitbullmom]

I spose what made me feel that you were dismissing other methods was when you said that you didn't care what studies or other websites said, that you would continue to use CM's methods.

That to me indicated that you had no interest in learning more about the information that is out there. I certainly don't read one thing or see one thing and stick with that. I understand that you also use various methods with your dog and really, that's the only thing that makes sense.

I'm crunched for time (should have left the house an hour ago) so I will address the rest of your post when I get back home.

[Chloe]

Feb 26, 2009 11:09:57 GMT -5 bamapitbullmom said:

I spose what made me feel that you were dismissing other methods was when you said that you didn't care what studies or other websites said, that you would continue to use CM's methods.

That to me indicated that you had no interest in learning more about the information that is out there. I certainly don't read one thing or see one thing and stick with that. I understand that you also use various methods with your dog and really, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Well I didnt mean it as not caring what they had to say, I apologize if it came across that way. I meant that just because there's people out there that dont like it, or studies that say it's not a good idea, doesnt mean I have to agree with that. Studies say/show many things all the time, like now days we are not supposed to drink sun tea, studies show it's bad for you, well I grew up on sun tea and I'm just fine, studies show we shouldnt eat raw cookie dough if eggs were used, well I did that too growing up and agian I'm just fine. Studies show, spanking your kids causes all kinds of horrible things when they are adults, I was spanked and dont have "problems". Never been arrested, didnt burn my school down, didnt get into fights and still dont.
I think every person is different just like every dog is different and what might stress one person or dog out might not do the same to another. Sure, there are many dogs out there that would not do well with CMs ways but there are many dogs out there that wouldnt do well with just positive reinforcement, there's nothing wrong with a little discipline.
As far as me not wanting to learn other ways, I already know many other ways, which I knew before CM. Again, I grew up with it. He's not the 1st person that I learned from, he's just the most recent. I'm always open to new ways but I like some of my old ways to.
I dont think anyone here is right or wrong, I dont think there is only 1 way to train a dog and I dont think CM's way is "better" then the way you prefer. I also dont think his way is cruel though either. There are many great ways to train a dog, positive enforcement is one of those great ways and again, I use that too.

[Chloe]

Feb 26, 2009 8:58:15 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

And P.S. Chloe, I think you know, but just in case, no one means to make you feel 'attacked' or like you have to defend yourself. I don't think (and I doubt anyone else does) you are an abusive or bad owner. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the topics in this thread.

Thanks for the reasurrance, I was starting to wonder if after this big discussion was over, I'd find myself kicked out of this forum or have a list of people who really disliked me. I hope neither of those things happens, I really enjoy this forum and I do learn a lot here!!

[RealPitBull]

Feb 26, 2009 11:41:23 GMT -5 Chloe said:

Feb 26, 2009 11:09:57 GMT -5 bamapitbullmom said:

I spose what made me feel that you were dismissing other methods was when you said that you didn't care what studies or other websites said, that you would continue to use CM's methods.

That to me indicated that you had no interest in learning more about the information that is out there. I certainly don't read one thing or see one thing and stick with that. I understand that you also use various methods with your dog and really, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Well I didnt mean it as not caring what they had to say, I apologize if it came across that way. I meant that just because there's people out there that dont like it, or studies that say it's not a good idea, doesnt mean I have to agree with that. Studies say/show many things all the time, like now days we are not supposed to drink sun tea, studies show it's bad for you, well I grew up on sun tea and I'm just fine, studies show we shouldnt eat raw cookie dough if eggs were used, well I did that too growing up and agian I'm just fine. Studies show, spanking your kids causes all kinds of horrible things when they are adults, I was spanked and dont have "problems". Never been arrested, didnt burn my school down, didnt get into fights and still dont.
I think every person is different just like every dog is different and what might stress one person or dog out might not do the same to another. Sure, there are many dogs out there that would not do well with CMs ways but there are many dogs out there that wouldnt do well with just positive reinforcement, there's nothing wrong with a little discipline.
As far as me not wanting to learn other ways, I already know many other ways, which I knew before CM. Again, I grew up with it. He's not the 1st person that I learned from, he's just the most recent. I'm always open to new ways but I like some of my old ways to.
I dont think anyone here is right or wrong, I dont think there is only 1 way to train a dog and I dont think CM's way is "better" then the way you prefer. I also dont think his way is cruel though either. There are many great ways to train a dog, positive enforcement is one of those great ways and again, I use that too.

In regards to studies/science, yes sometimes findings change. The goal of science is to uncover the truth and get to the bottom of things. Science can only come to conclusions based on the total body of information available at the time the conclusion is made. Science is not infallible or unchanging. Which is why eggs may be good for you one year but not the next. And why I turn to science for answers to many things - because unlike the opinions of some that NEVER evolve despite new information being discovered, science is constantly updating and bringing to light NEW conclusions.

As far as behavioral science is concerned, I think you'll find that the studies about the detrimental effects of punishment have not flip-flopped. Once the information was brought to light, they pretty much have stayed in a place of understanding that punishment causes harm to the organism on the receiving end, and that R+ is a good and even better way to teach new behaviors. It's not like one year punishment was bad, then it was good, then it was bad again.

And frankly, if my two options are to go by the word of 1) someone with ZERO credentials that has been WIDELY criticized by humane groups, vets, and the behavioral community in general (and obviously doesn't understand operant conditioning principles) OR 2) the likes of Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar, Kathy Sdao, Kellie Snider, The Baileys, Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnel, Karen Overall, among MANY others - well, I'll take # 2.

As for me, I don't need studies to tell me that jerking, kneeing, pulling, shoving, pinning or shocking are things I'd like to avoid in dog training. Just so happens I can avoid all those things by using other methods. So that's what I do.

[RealPitBull]

Feb 26, 2009 11:49:11 GMT -5 Chloe said:

Feb 26, 2009 8:58:15 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

And P.S. Chloe, I think you know, but just in case, no one means to make you feel 'attacked' or like you have to defend yourself. I don't think (and I doubt anyone else does) you are an abusive or bad owner. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the topics in this thread.

Thanks for the reasurrance, I was starting to wonder if after this big discussion was over, I'd find myself kicked out of this forum or have a list of people who really disliked me. I hope neither of those things happens, I really enjoy this forum and I do learn a lot here!!

You won't get kicked out, you are more than welcome here! The only thing I ask, as per the rules, is no promotion of things like choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, or pain/discomfort in training/behavior modification in response to requests for help. So in other words, if someone asked, "My Pit Bull is jumping on me, what do I do?", we wouldn't suggest "Knee him in the chest". Another example, if someone were to ask, "My Pit Bull lunges at other dogs, help please!", we wouldn't advise them to jerk/correct the dog every time he lunged.

Discussing hypotheticals or science or reasons why certain methods/techniques are better than others (as we are doing in this thread) is 100% ok.

[RealPitBull]

I also wanted to add that you have been nothing but friendly and polite since you've been here, and I really appreciate that.

[valliesong]

I wanted to note that you can even train honey bees using these same methods Mary is discussing. We had the privilege of working with them in my animal behavior class at Kutztown University. I also did an independent project for the class involving sound discrimination with my guinea pig, and she was VERY quickly primed to respond to the clicker versus a bell, which gave her no reward.

[RealPitBull]

Feb 26, 2009 13:43:20 GMT -5 valliesong said:

I wanted to note that you can even train honey bees using these same methods Mary is discussing. We had the privilege of working with them in my animal behavior class at Kutztown University. I also did an independent project for the class involving sound discrimination with my guinea pig, and she was VERY quickly primed to respond to the clicker versus a bell, which gave her no reward.

That's awesome!

See, the thing is about positive (clicker) training is that you know it's sound because you can take the principles and train any animal. There is even a whole website about training goldfish! And when exotic animal trainers can teach animals like walruses to accept having a needle stuck in their flipper or to easily accept medical handling or swallow medicine, I think us pet dog people can take a note or two from their book!

[bamapitbullmom]

Chloe, you have been absolutely amiable during this discussion and this is one reason I prefer this forum because everyone keeps things respectful. While we may disagree on some points and even some major ones, each of us have different experiences and reasons we are where we are and do what we do and we all have the same goals and general outlooks regarding our dogs.

Just for a bit of personal experience (and I am going this route as a general reference, not as advice b/c you did not ask for advice) I will explain myself and why I do not support CM and dominance based handling/training.

As nearly all positive trainers did (and by positive I don't mean treat slingers, coddlers, push overs, etc but experts in the field, many with PhD's and out of my league knowledge) I started training dogs (my own and others) using aversive measures and corrections. Unfortunately it was only within the last 5 years that I became aware of more humane and sensible methods and immediately threw out my prong collars and chokes and did away with corrections.

In saying that, trust me, I have mucho control of any animals in my home. There are rules, there are behaviors which are off limits and a glance or a clearing of my throat is now all that is needed to nip something in the bud. This did not happen via physically redirecting or correcting my dogs.

In years past, looking back, I know I was much more frustrated with my dogs, felt the need to punish and my dogs basically did not know what was expected of them out of context. All of them had phenomenal obedience and high degrees of off leash control and were well-mannered but the relationship with each was lacking because of the way I trained them.

I don't have that with my dogs now. I have never so much as had to touch my dogs to train a behavior. I do not correct them more than giving a cue which tells them what they tried was not right and to try again. My dogs now are soooo much more motivated and genuinely try to do what is expected but more importantly, b/c of the methods I have incorporated, they are much better equipped and mentally able to do so.

Using your reference to using CM's (patented) finger "bite" to the neck is a good example of the differences possibly achieved using a different method.

A "bite" with the fingers to the dogs neck requires 1) a person to be within physical reaching distance to apply the correction and 2) perfect timing to redirect the undesired behavior.

It also promotes 1) a hand shy dog 2) a dog with an unseen injury or anomoly to react out of pain to the "jab" 3) a dog to be pushier and more assertive towards a smaller person (ie: child) b/c the child does not correct the dog 4) reactivity due to defensiveness (a dog which has had enough) 5) IMO, secondary learning on my children's part that shows physical punishment is acceptable. (By the way, my parents did *not* use corporal punishment and I turned out fine, too.) Comparing humans and dogs isn't exactly fair as one species has the ability to reason and understand consequences and the other does not.

Instead, I have trained my dogs a "leave it" cue and built upon manners which includes that when human food is present (or even when working with doggie treats) a sit is required. This is a default behavior they have learned early on and applicable in numerous situations such as being leashed, greeting visitors and wanting to go outdoors. Learning an auto sit is a building block of communication in my opinion. It indicates that the dog understands that he must first perform an acceptable behavior before being rewarded and that rewarding himself (snatching food) is not acceptable.

My kids are notorious for walking around with a snack, sitting on the sofa next to the dogs and eating and they are able to even place a plate of food on the living room floor, leave it to walk to the kitchen for something and my dogs, lying within feet (or closer) will not touch it. This absolutely was not achieveable via redirection or corrections.

If I needed to "correct" my dogs with a finger "bite" each time they tried to take food from someone's hand, it would require me to be there each instance but more importantly, it doesn't teach them anything. It only teaches them that they need to be sneakier, faster and that they likely will get away with it if you aren't looking or present.

By teaching my children the verbal cues, and allowing them to practice these exercises consistently and with the same responses which I use, my dogs listen and respond to my kids the same as they do myself b/c it isn't *me* that keeps them in line, it's the learned behaviors.

Years and years ago I remember an instance when my father had grilled cheeseburgers and had fixed himself a mega yummy one, set it on the coffee table to go get a napkin from the kitchen and when he came back my Rottweiler had eaten the entire thing. Though it was mildly funny at the time, Zack was punished by being yelled at (by me) with a finger in his face and he cowered from me for the next day or so. It was also dangerous. Had this been a pork chop, he could have ingested the cooked bone. Now, the fault was mine and my father's for leaving the irresistable burger there and mine for not teaching Zack properly to leave what is not his, especially food.

But in hindsight and through my gains with my current dogs, I see exactly the plethora of things I did wrong. Punishing Zack taught him one thing. I can be scary. The punishment took place several minutes after he enjoyed that burger so there was no message sent to him that eating from a plate on the coffee table was not acceptable. Only that out of the blue, I can be mean to him. Of course this was back when unfortunately a perfect heel, finish, front and incredibly long and insane sit stays were more important to me that creating a true bond with my dog.

Basically, I guess what I am trying to communicate is that I really persuade anyone with a dog, especially those who truly have the ability and skill to work with them to look beyond what feeds the masses. There really isn't a situation where I feel that relying on physical redirection is necessary. There are so many more levels which we can communicate with these creatures with long lasting results, not just instant which make no sense to the dog.

I have been so grateful to my mentor which opened this world of training and I learn more every day, with each book I read, with each seminar I attend, with each forum and discussion I read and am involved in. It's fascinating. And honestly, I have done more with my two current dogs in the 3.5 years I have owned them than I have ever accomplished with any of my other dogs in the past, even though each was well-mannered and exceptionally trained, what we lacked was a higher understanding and teamwork relationship.

And that's exactly what I wish for everyone who owns a dog.