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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 26, 2009 14:22:01 GMT -5
See, the thing is about positive (clicker) training is that you know it's sound because you can take the principles and train any animal. There is even a whole website about training goldfish! And when exotic animal trainers can teach animals like walruses to accept having a needle stuck in their flipper or to easily accept medical handling or swallow medicine, I think us pet dog people can take a note or two from their book! This is exactly how I taught Cajun to readily and willingly accept getting his regular allergy shots. I couldn't imagine having to hold him down or correcting him for not tolerating it. Instead, he runs to the kitchen to get them! I've seen studies also where amebas were conditioned to move towards light, rather than instinctively away from it for rewards. I'll have to look that one up, I saw it discussed years ago but a trainer friend and I were talking about it the other night. If "training" a single celled organism isn't validation enough, I don't know what is.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 26, 2009 16:31:16 GMT -5
"In saying that, trust me, I have mucho control of any animals in my home. There are rules, there are behaviors which are off limits and a glance or a clearing of my throat is now all that is needed to nip something in the bud. This did not happen via physically redirecting or correcting my dogs."
well that's the thing, dogs have evolved to be very in tune to our desires, through facial expressions, tonal cues in our voice, and other subconscious cues we make. I wonder if CM used only his "tssst" cue to correct a bad behavior if that would be enough. i probably would not be enough to train out the behavior completely other techniques would need to be implied, but if the dog had its paws up on the couch, and he went "tssst" i wonder if could get its attention and back it down.
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Post by andreacassel on Feb 26, 2009 17:03:51 GMT -5
I don't know. I don't watch the animal training shows, I go classes instead. I do know, that as young as Lily is, when she is about to "destroy" something that does not belong to her all I have to do is make the "ernt" noise and she leaves it. I had NO idea how smart this little lady was going to be.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 26, 2009 18:21:23 GMT -5
well that's the thing, dogs have evolved to be very in tune to our desires, through facial expressions, tonal cues in our voice, and other subconscious cues we make. I wonder if CM used only his "tssst" cue to correct a bad behavior if that would be enough. i probably would not be enough to train out the behavior completely other techniques would need to be implied, but if the dog had its paws up on the couch, and he went "tssst" i wonder if could get its attention and back it down. I prefer to train behaviors I do want and extinguish the behaviors I don't want. Correcting a dog physically for getting on the sofa is still a correction and one likely the dog does not understand. This is also where I see alot of owner issues..."I don't want my dog on the furniture and I correct or punish the dog for doing so" however, no alternatives are offered to the dog. If you think about it, having to correct a dog constantly for a "misbehavior" takes alot more energy than teaching a dog what is expected. My dogs are allowed on furniture and in my bed. However, if I am on the furniture or bed in which they wish to be on, that requires permission. Through the methods I have used I now have 3 dogs, 2 of my personal dogs and one foster who all respond the same way to mild communication. Example: My husband and I are lying in bed, dog enters the room, we decide we do not want a dog in the bed at that time. The *only* thing I have to do is mutter "uhuh" and the dog turns and leaves the room and either goes to it's crate, the sofa, a dog bed or the floor. There is no argument, me getting out of bed and leading the dog out of the room and no struggle. The same is true when one brings something stinky inside. I don't have to battle my dogs, I just tell them cheerfully that whatever it is stinks and they can have it but take it outside (such as the cowhoof Caj brought inside 5 minutes ago). Routine and consistency tells them that if they don't abide the first few times that they lose their possession. Dogs feed on repetition and consistency so I talk to my guys all the time, using basic terms and phrases which always indicate the same result. They get it. No need for force or corrections.
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 26, 2009 19:38:19 GMT -5
[quote author=snipe board=moldmanagethepitbullmind thread=81 post=13109 time=1235683876 well that's the thing, dogs have evolved to be very in tune to our desires, through facial expressions, tonal cues in our voice, and other subconscious cues we make. I wonder if CM used only his "tssst" cue to correct a bad behavior if that would be enough. i probably would not be enough to train out the behavior completely other techniques would need to be implied, but if the dog had its paws up on the couch, and he went "tssst" i wonder if could get its attention and back it down.[/quote]
Yes, it does work to just make the sound once the dog knows that sound and what it stands for. I do it with Chloe. I dont always have to give her the bite, I often just use the sound and it does the trick.
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 26, 2009 19:47:29 GMT -5
Bama, My opinions about CM are still the same, I like him, I use his ways and I will continue to. However, you mentioned something about your mentor and how much you have learned from her. Can you tell me her name pls. I would love to check her out, as I stated a few times, I'm open to many different ways of training and maybe I will want to use her ways as well, as there is more then 1 right way to train a dog! Both you and Real Pit Bull have been polite and respectful also and I do appreciate that. I look forward to getting the info on your mentor!
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 26, 2009 20:05:19 GMT -5
My mentor is Frances Dauster, CPDT and she is now a very close friend. Anything I would say is what she would say but you are very welcome to contact her. We are very close and travel to seminars, events, etc together and I dog/house sit for her when she is away. She has a training business called P's & Q's Dog Training and also offers in-home boarding (crates in the home, no kennels) and doggie play dates. Frances is highly qualified: she's a memeber of the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors, Association of Pet Dog Trainers, Founding member of Truly Dog Friendly, and AKC CGC evaluator and gained the SF/SPCA Counseling Certificate. Her email addy is dobemom@juno.com and her phone number is 251-786-7297 When I got Cajun, I enrolled him in her puppy classes and have never looked back. I now assist with her classes, puppy, manners and obedience and we go out on evaluations regularly. Please do contact her, she's a wealth of information. Keep in mind, she has an accent and tends to talk quickly.
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 27, 2009 10:05:52 GMT -5
My mentor is Frances Dauster, CPDT and she is now a very close friend. Anything I would say is what she would say but you are very welcome to contact her. We are very close and travel to seminars, events, etc together and I dog/house sit for her when she is away. She has a training business called P's & Q's Dog Training and also offers in-home boarding (crates in the home, no kennels) and doggie play dates. Frances is highly qualified: she's a memeber of the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors, Association of Pet Dog Trainers, Founding member of Truly Dog Friendly, and AKC CGC evaluator and gained the SF/SPCA Counseling Certificate. Her email addy is dobemom@juno.com and her phone number is 251-786-7297 When I got Cajun, I enrolled him in her puppy classes and have never looked back. I now assist with her classes, puppy, manners and obedience and we go out on evaluations regularly. Please do contact her, she's a wealth of information. Keep in mind, she has an accent and tends to talk quickly. Does she happen to have any books that she has written on dog training? I learn better if I can see/do it, but that wont happen because I'm all the way in Colorado, so the next best way for me is a book that I can refer back to often if I get hung up. Thanks for the info!!
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 27, 2009 10:48:43 GMT -5
My mentor is Frances Dauster, CPDT and she is now a very close friend. Anything I would say is what she would say but you are very welcome to contact her. We are very close and travel to seminars, events, etc together and I dog/house sit for her when she is away. She has a training business called P's & Q's Dog Training and also offers in-home boarding (crates in the home, no kennels) and doggie play dates. Frances is highly qualified: she's a memeber of the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors, Association of Pet Dog Trainers, Founding member of Truly Dog Friendly, and AKC CGC evaluator and gained the SF/SPCA Counseling Certificate. Her email addy is dobemom@juno.com and her phone number is 251-786-7297 When I got Cajun, I enrolled him in her puppy classes and have never looked back. I now assist with her classes, puppy, manners and obedience and we go out on evaluations regularly. Please do contact her, she's a wealth of information. Keep in mind, she has an accent and tends to talk quickly. Does she happen to have any books that she has written on dog training? I learn better if I can see/do it, but that wont happen because I'm all the way in Colorado, so the next best way for me is a book that I can refer back to often if I get hung up. Thanks for the info!! Chloe, I REALLY recommend you check out the following books, which Bama mentioned earlier: Culture Clash Don't Shoot the Dog Power of Positive Training
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 27, 2009 11:23:27 GMT -5
Thanks Real!
There was soooo much conversation going on, I forgot about the books she mentioned before.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 27, 2009 14:19:05 GMT -5
Thanks Real! There was soooo much conversation going on, I forgot about the books she mentioned before. I know, that's why I figured I'd mention 'em again!
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Post by bubsy on Mar 7, 2009 15:59:27 GMT -5
Ughhhh, I'm in a discussion about Cesar on another forum. I might as well give up, because apparently I'm in the minority thinking that he sucks. Apparently I have no right to publicly claim he sucks since I don't do what he does with dogs. I don't take on extreme aggression cases like he does LOL...yep, no right to disagree with the man. Ughhh.
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 9, 2009 10:30:26 GMT -5
Ughhhh, I'm in a discussion about Cesar on another forum. I might as well give up, because apparently I'm in the minority thinking that he sucks. Apparently I have no right to publicly claim he sucks since I don't do what he does with dogs. I don't take on extreme aggression cases like he does LOL...yep, no right to disagree with the man. Ughhh. LOL I posted a bulletin on Myspace with no comments, just a link to that news piece done on him creating 'ticking time bombs' and shocking that cat-chasing GSD. I got a response that said, paraphrased: "I love Cesar, I think he's brilliant. A friend of mine always argued with me about him but she used the same techniques to train dogs. Finally she admitted she was just jealous". Huh. OK. ??? ??? AND??? Yet another person commented that she does the "shhhhht" thing and it works for her dogs, where "no" and "uh uh!" didn't. How much you want to bet that when she started using "shhhht" she was jabbing the dog in the neck with her fingers, but wasn't doing anything physical when she used "no" and "uh uh". People don't understand classical conditioning. They don't get that they could have said "Tuna fish!" and poked the dog, and conditioned the dog to respond to that, too, eventually. But I did get another comment from a person who said she liked Cesar but wasn't aware that he used shock collars, and she seemed a bit alarmed by that fact. Gotta just keep chipping away and presenting correct info on dog training in general.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 9, 2009 12:05:08 GMT -5
I still always find it fascinating that CM fans never consider better ways to train. I'd like to see CM train a dolphin to jump through a hoop or an adult walrus to tolerate blood being drawn.
It's all about a quick fix and with little or no real regard to how dogs learn or the effect of physical and aversive methods, much less what they *aren't* teaching.
It's management through creating a dog which now fears physical reprimands and punishment without understanding what's expected of them instead.
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Post by bubsy on Mar 10, 2009 15:24:54 GMT -5
I still always find it fascinating that CM fans never consider better ways to train. I'd like to see CM train a dolphin to jump through a hoop or an adult walrus to tolerate blood being drawn. Yup. I think some people *want* an adversarial relationship with their dog, and Cesar's whole philosophy fits with that mind set. I gave up on the Cesar discussion on the other forum LOL, I wanted to bang my head against the wall. It's funny because people kept pointing out that he works with extreme aggression cases, and you have to be tough, etc etc. But I've seen most of his shows, and most are common problems that could be fixed w/positive methods. I mentioned how weird the pack thing is...and someone told me there is no difference in keeping a pack of APBTs and GSDs
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 10, 2009 15:35:34 GMT -5
I always wonder if his "pack" is so rehabilitated why aren't they in loving homes?
Did anyone else hear that he shuffled them off to shelters or something while building his new facility? I know rumors abound but this one has been circulating for some time.
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Post by bubsy on Mar 10, 2009 15:42:23 GMT -5
No, I haven't heard anything about him taking dogs to shelters. Hmmm, interesting. I wonder if it's true.
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 11, 2009 7:22:39 GMT -5
I always wonder if his "pack" is so rehabilitated why aren't they in loving homes? Did anyone else hear that he shuffled them off to shelters or something while building his new facility? I know rumors abound but this one has been circulating for some time. I haven't heard that but I wouldn't be suprised since he was so quick to trade one of his dogs for a client's 'problem' dog. I see his dogs more as part of his advertising campaign and less as his personal companion animals. Just my impression.
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Post by maryellen on Mar 11, 2009 7:54:03 GMT -5
i would rather see one of his dogs in a real home then living with his pack.. are you talking about the one episode with the pit bull that he brought to the couples home as their own dog was having issues? and he let them adopt the pit bull? or the episode where the little yap yap dog he had got to live with the family with kids ?
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 11, 2009 7:57:49 GMT -5
I'm talking about the episode where the one Pit Bull wasn't getting along in its current home and he offered to trade the dog for one of his own.
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