|
|
Post by pistis on Sept 14, 2010 19:16:41 GMT -5
Honey, we were just "alpha rolling" I swear!!
|
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Sept 14, 2010 21:12:03 GMT -5
I also have to add, that Cesar's communication level with dogs is HORRENDOUS. He doesn't read dogs well at ALL, which is one reason he gets bitten so often. He is constantly pushing dogs into a stressful state in order to bait them into aggressing so he can phsyically subdue them and look like he has "accomplished" something - he sets dog up to fail, dog aggresses, then he uses his magical "energy" to push the dog into a state of helplessness. Some dogs manage to bite him first, though.  this is a point that is not made often enough. Most dog trainers never, or rarely, get bitten. Cesar gets bitten all the time, and seems to be proud of it and even seek it out. Agreed! I don't think that he is necessarily bad at reading dogs... he either doesn't care or is intentionally pushing the dog to their limit. I think it's likely the latter. |
|
|
|
Post by pistis on Sept 14, 2010 23:42:52 GMT -5
It amazes me how so many bad things can be overlooked simply because people are ignorant to them. And, it really fills me with joy to know I found this forum. Regarding CM, I got to educate a lady recently about him. There is a lot to the story, but basically I explained positive and alternate methods to train pit bulls. She felt that CM tactics were best suited for pit bulls and pit bull type dogs. When I told her about an alternative/positive way she asked me if it really worked. It was a good experience. Hopefully we can discuss it more in the future as well. Again, it's been such an honor to know you guys and gain your knowledge! Otherwise I doubt I'd be any better than some of the people I come across, and I'd have no knowledge to share in return.  |
|
|
|
Post by loverocksalot on Sept 15, 2010 6:16:06 GMT -5
Haven't posted on this thread in a while, but I had a brief, interesting email discussion with a friend recently (and RPB volunteer, actually). This person is not a CM fan, and she subscribes to R+ training methods. She had sent me a link to a Youtube vid done by a pro trainer, which was using Premack Principle to curb fence running/reactivity. The dogs were off leash, and the trainer was using a clicker. Just demonstrating the basic technique. It was about a ten min vid and frankly, to the casual observer, not much interesting was going on, except you could see the dogs' gradual drop in arousal levels and more checking-in with the trainer. It was cool for a behavior junkie to watch, but not much fun for the casual observer or someone looking for "action dog training shots". Still, what was happening in the vid was poignant. Although slow and not too exciting. Kind of like how scientifically sound, behavior shaping goes in general. I emailed my friend my thoughts on the vid and she wrote back "I actually found this video sooo boring". And in that little phrase, she truly summed up why Cesar Millan's show is full of jerking, alpha rolling, slamming, kicking, dogs pushed past arousal to the point of extreme aggressive response, and biting: that stuff is "exciting" and "action packed". Sound, humane, positive training is actually usually pretty boring to watch. At the end of the day, it really IS all about ratings. Victoria Stillwell has managed to be fairly successful, showcasing her humane training techniques in a TV show. But she still has not reached anywhere near the stardom that CM has; and I believe if she didn't have her "tough gal, no-nonsense" schtick, she'd not even have the success she does have. My point with this post is to remind people that "reality TV" is not about what's real, true, right, best, or ACTUAL reality - it is about ratings, making money, and giving the audience something that they will actually watch. If you really want to learn how to treat and train dogs, books, seminars and DVDs or working with real, live dog trainers and behavior experts that have credentials, is the way to go. I would like to see this video. |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Sept 15, 2010 7:37:51 GMT -5
this is a point that is not made often enough. Most dog trainers never, or rarely, get bitten. Cesar gets bitten all the time, and seems to be proud of it and even seek it out. Agreed! I don't think that he is necessarily bad at reading dogs... he either doesn't care or is intentionally pushing the dog to their limit. I think it's likely the latter. Then he's purposely lying about what he's supposedly reading, too - the explanations he gives for behavior are usually completely opposite to what is actually happening.  |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Sept 15, 2010 7:38:45 GMT -5
Haven't posted on this thread in a while, but I had a brief, interesting email discussion with a friend recently (and RPB volunteer, actually). This person is not a CM fan, and she subscribes to R+ training methods. She had sent me a link to a Youtube vid done by a pro trainer, which was using Premack Principle to curb fence running/reactivity. The dogs were off leash, and the trainer was using a clicker. Just demonstrating the basic technique. It was about a ten min vid and frankly, to the casual observer, not much interesting was going on, except you could see the dogs' gradual drop in arousal levels and more checking-in with the trainer. It was cool for a behavior junkie to watch, but not much fun for the casual observer or someone looking for "action dog training shots". Still, what was happening in the vid was poignant. Although slow and not too exciting. Kind of like how scientifically sound, behavior shaping goes in general. I emailed my friend my thoughts on the vid and she wrote back "I actually found this video sooo boring". And in that little phrase, she truly summed up why Cesar Millan's show is full of jerking, alpha rolling, slamming, kicking, dogs pushed past arousal to the point of extreme aggressive response, and biting: that stuff is "exciting" and "action packed". Sound, humane, positive training is actually usually pretty boring to watch. At the end of the day, it really IS all about ratings. Victoria Stillwell has managed to be fairly successful, showcasing her humane training techniques in a TV show. But she still has not reached anywhere near the stardom that CM has; and I believe if she didn't have her "tough gal, no-nonsense" schtick, she'd not even have the success she does have. My point with this post is to remind people that "reality TV" is not about what's real, true, right, best, or ACTUAL reality - it is about ratings, making money, and giving the audience something that they will actually watch. If you really want to learn how to treat and train dogs, books, seminars and DVDs or working with real, live dog trainers and behavior experts that have credentials, is the way to go. I would like to see this video. It'll try to find it and post it, CA |
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Sept 15, 2010 10:45:24 GMT -5
Then he's purposely lying about what he's supposedly reading, too - the explanations he gives for behavior are usually completely opposite to what is actually happening. Yep. |
|
|
|
Post by jennaw on Sept 15, 2010 11:34:13 GMT -5
Really? I have never seen Cesar "hurt" or inappropriately correct a dog. He is not a dog trainer and has never claimed to be such. He rehabs dogs, at their level, their natural state of being. I never hit my dogs, by I do tap their tail ends or slightly tug on the leash before they begin an unacceptable behavior (such as fence fighting on walks). And they respond every time, there is no yelp of discomfort, no cowering, just a focus returned to the task at hand, walking with the pack and their leader. They don't respond to "hey, knock that off!" because they don't understand English, Spanish, or any other language spoken by a human! They understand ENERGY.
What they respond to is an action that changes their focus from the dog they want to fight with through the fence to me and us walking down the street. Cesar has it right, stop it before it escalates. When he "provokes" an unwanted behavior there is a reason for it, YOU can't correct it unless it occurs!
I have utilized what he teaches and most of the time it WORKS, when it doesn't it has always been because I myself can not come to a place of calm assertiveness because my nerves and fears override my energy. My boyfriend utilizing Cesars techniques and they work for him BEAUTIFULLY every time.
I had a friend whose dog was over whelming when she greeted anybody, jumping and what not. One day I decided when I walked through her gate I was going to use Cesars approach "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" within seconds, literally seconds the dog Penny gave me my personal space and respected it until I invited her to say hello. When she was invited there was no over-excited jumping, pushing me around or otherwise it was pure respect and calmness. I never said or word or touched her prior to my invitation for her to come over to me. It was pure calm assertive energy. She still jumped all over anybody else who came to visit, including her owners, but she gave me my space every time from that day forward.
He doesn't punish, he disciplines. Think about our children who are disciplined, why would you not provide the same structure for your dog? It makes no sense.
|
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Sept 15, 2010 11:42:23 GMT -5
Jenna, please read this thread first. All of the points you bring up in your post have been addressed and explained somewhere in this thread.
Millan ABSOLUTELY USES punishment. Scientifically, behaviorally, his method is LARGELY based on punishment. That is just fact. "Discipline" means nothing in the scientific community. Punishment has a very real definition and what Millan does falls under the scientific definition of PUNISHMENT.
He uses POSITIVE PUNISHMENT: application of an aversive (something the dog finds unpleasant) to lessen the presentation of a behavior. That is by FAR Millan's biggest "tool" in his box. Application of aversives to lessen the presentation of a behavior.
I saw vids of Millan choking dogs til they nearly passed out. They are linked around this forum. I have seen him push dogs into a frenzy. I have seen him jerk, kick, and shock dogs. I have seen him push dogs into a state of learned helplessness. Don't believe the hype. He's lying to his audience.
Like I said, this thread addresses it all - and there are a ton of resources at the very top of the thread, first post.
|
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Sept 15, 2010 12:06:59 GMT -5
Really? I have never seen Cesar "hurt" or inappropriately correct a dog. ... then either you haven't seen the excerpts people have posted, or you have a different definition of "hurt" and "inappropriate" than I do. He chokes dogs until they can't breathe, for example, which I imagine DOES "hurt". |
|
|
|
Post by pistis on Sept 15, 2010 13:03:50 GMT -5
Jenna, I get where you're coming from and energy will always play a big role when it comes to training dogs. High pitched voices, fear, or remaining clam will elicit different responses out of our animals. The methods that Cesar uses that does work are used by trainers who do ALL the right things, not just SOME right things. For me, I'd rather use a trainer's methods that I know does everything the way it should be. The best thing to do is just research.
Doing as much research as one can with an unbiased mindset will always lead to the more correct answers we're all looking for/ the truth.
The people on this forum have spent YEARS (longer than CM) in the dog-training world and have delved into the opinions of other scientific minds to come to their own personal conclusions about his methods and the methods of other trainers you'll hear about. The facts are always hard to find as well all know after dealing with pit bull type dogs.
For instance, many of us have, through months or years of learning, realized we can't just listen to the media hype surrounding these/our dogs.
You don't have to ask us for our opinions yet, or ever, if you don't want to. But, I do politely ask that you look into some of the evidence we have found that has led many of the people on this forum to their conclusions regarding Cesar. Let's just say you don't even change your mind. At least you will have gained more knowledge reiterating what you already believed in. Either way you can't loose.
All I ask is that anyone uncover the complete facts before deciding where they stand. It's the best way to go.
|
|
|
|
Post by jennaw on Sept 15, 2010 13:17:33 GMT -5
I have already read most of the links... some of them are no longer good, do you have new links for those that error out? I'll continue to research and respond again. But I still stand by "my" opinion at this point. Both of my girls are rescues that came from VERY abusive backgrounds and after 9 years we have come a loong way, and most of that journey has been successful based on the teachings of CM. The same is true for several of my friends who are pitty parents. I again state, my dogs have NEVER been hit (by me or my family) or abused in any other form from my household (as stated they were rescued from abusers). they are beloved members of my family who come only behind my son.
But as is my nature, I will look for the evidence in favor of Millans methods as well as opposite views. But again my opion is skewed regardless, because of personal experience, my own and others whom I know.
Thank you all for your thoughts!
|
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Sept 15, 2010 13:22:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by michele5611 on Sept 15, 2010 15:45:45 GMT -5
Jenna curious how you trained your dogs. I know you mentioned that you trained using CM techniques but what exactly does that mean? Just trying to get a better idea of where you are coming from.
When I first got my dog I trained her using the old school training techniques like making leash corrections and so on. Shortly there after I was introduced to positive training.
Also I do not think anyone is insinuating or thinks you hit your dog. For me at the end of the day I can train my dog to leave something on the floor by yelling at her or correcting" her by means of punishment (the chain jerk) or I can us the principles of positive training to accomplish the same thing with out making my dog "perform" based on fear.
|
|
|
|
Post by sugar on Sept 15, 2010 16:19:42 GMT -5
Jenna curious how you trained your dogs. I know you mentioned that you trained using CM techniques but what exactly does that mean? Just trying to get a better idea of where you are coming from. I agree, a little more info would be helpful. Only reason I say that is I had a trainer/behaviorist come see me and my dog shortly after he was rescued because he was mess (possibly abused, obviously phyiscally abused, didn't know what rules were, never lived in a house before...etc.) The trainer said he used a lot of Ceasar's techniques (which I will admit made me very nervous) and he even had a teeshirt that said 'packleader' ("because that way the dog can read who I am right off the bat!" he joked). He did talk of energy, which I totally believe in, BUT I never saw him alpha roll my dog (and he also stated he would never do that to a dog, although CM does), he never did those 'taps' CM does with his foot, he never did the 'bite hand' thingy like CM does and he would never use choke chains. So while my trainer guy said he really loved CM's techniques, he never really used them (well, the way CM uses his own tecniques on his show. The only real part of CM my trainer used was the whole concept of energy being so important (which like I stated before I think makes a HUGE difference in how to train a dog. I know personally I don't even try to train my dog when I'm angry or frustrated because Chubs picks up on it). |
|
|
|
Post by pistis on Sept 15, 2010 16:32:05 GMT -5
I particularly liked this bit of information:
Andrew Luescher, DVM, Ph.D, DACVB
Review submitted to National Geographic by
Andrew Luescher, DVM, Ph.D, DACVB
He is certified as an applied animal behaviorist and is a diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists.
I reviewed the four preview-videotapes kindly submitted to me by National Geographic. I very much appreciate having gotten the opportunity to see these tapes before the program goes on the air. I will be happy to review any programs that deal with domestic animal behavior and training. I believe this is a responsibility of our profession.
I have been involved in continuing education for dog trainers for over 10 years, first through the How Dogs Learn" program at the University of Guelph (Ontario Veterinary College) and then through the DOGS! Course at Purdue University. I therefore know very well where dog training stands today, and I must tell you that Millan's techniques are outdated and unacceptable not only to the veterinary community, but also to dog trainers. The first question regarding the above mentioned tapes I have is this: The show repeatedly cautions the viewers not to attempt these techniques at home. What then is the purpose of this show? I think we have to be realistic: people will try these techniques at home, much to the detriment of their pets.
Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: Flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.
Positive punishment refers to applying an aversive stimulus or correction as a consequence of a behavior. There are many concerns about punishment aside from its unpleasantness. Punishment is entirely inappropriate for most types of aggression and for any behavior that involves anxiety. Punishment can suppress most behavior but does not resolve the underlying problem, i.e., the fear or anxiety. Even in cases where correctly applied punishment might be considered appropriate, many conditions have to be met that most dog owners can't meet: The punishment has to be applied every time the behavior is displayed, within ½ second of the behavior, and at the correct intensity.
I would just like to point out three particularly disturbing episodes. In one, a Great Dane is dragged onto a slippery floor by a choke chain. Again, punishment and flooding is used. The dog was under extreme stress. The photographer did an excellent job at documenting the excessive drooling. In another sequence a Viszla is corrected for showing fear by inflicting pain. Would you hit your frightened child if it was afraid, say, of heights? The most disturbing sequence was the Entlebucher Mountain Dog with compulsive disorder that was "treated" with a prong collar. The dog's behavior could be compared to stereotypic rocking in a child. The method Millan used to approach this problem would be like hitting this severely disturbed child each time it rocks. I bet you could suppress rocking behavior, but certainly no-one would suggest that that child was cured.
The last episode (compulsive disorder) is particularly unsettling because compulsive disorder is related to an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels or receptors, and is therefore unequivocally a medical condition. Would it be appropriate to treat obsessive compulsive disorder in people with punishment? Or have a layperson go around treating such patients?
Most of the theoretical explanations that Millan gives regarding causes of the behavior problems are wrong. Not one of these dogs had any issue with dominance. Not one of these dogs wanted to control their owners. What he was right about was that calmness and consistency are extremely important, but they don't make the presented methods appropriate or justifiable.
The title "The Dog Whisperer" is particularly ironic. The title is of course taken from the horse whisperer. The training techniques of the horse whisperer are based on an understanding of equine behavior, and are non-confrontational and particularly gentle. Cesar Millan anything but "whispers"!
I think this series, if aired, would be a major embarrassment for National Geographic. It is not stimulating or thought-provoking, since none of the presented techniques are new. They are outdated and have long been abandoned by most responsible trainers, let alone behaviorists, as inappropriate and cruel. I very much hope National Geographic will pull the
plug on this program.
My colleagues and I and innumerable leaders in the dog training community have worked now for decades to eliminate such cruel, ineffective (in terms of true cure) and inappropriate techniques. It would be a major blow for all our efforts if National Geographic portrayed these very techniques as the current standard in training and behavior modification. National Geographic would be in a difficult situation because they would promote an individual practicing veterinary medicine without a license (at least compulsive disorder is a medical condition, and the diagnosis of any behavior problem is considered practicing veterinary medicine in the model veterinary practice act). I also would not be surprised if the large national animal welfare organizations were to sue National Geographic for promoting cruelty to animals. I can guarantee to you that they would have the support of all professional organizations involved in dog behavior and training.
Andrew Luescher DVM PhD DACVB
Director, Animal Behavior Clinic
School of Veterinary Medicine
Purdue University
|
|
|
|
Post by desertpits on Sept 16, 2010 14:11:42 GMT -5
I have read it. I understand what you're trying to say but you're also not understanding what I'm saying in my post. Like I said, its difficult for me to explain where I'm coming from and for people who are completely against Cesar for various reasons its even more difficult. I certainly don't agree with everything he does.
I have 10 well behaved dogs that are not fearful or treated aggressively by my training techniques which are derived in part from Cesar as well as others.
Exactly, one can use elements of Cesar's style without being negative, aggressive or abusive.
I don't like his aggressiveness towards dogs either and you don't need it. But there are other aspects of his methods that can be used effectively without being abusive or aggressive. Its Cesar toned waaaaaay down.
Recently I helped a volunteer group at a nearby shelter with some dog walking skills and some basic training to help them out with the dogs. I never mentioned Cesar Millan but after working with the dogs and showing the volunteers a few things and they were seeing results one of them asked me who's training methods I was using. I told them that my training methods are a combination of many trainers, including Cesar Milan. One woman said "oh I can't stand Cesar Millan but I don't recall seeing you do anything that he does." Well, that's because its far more subtle than what we see from Cesar.
|
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Sept 16, 2010 14:33:26 GMT -5
Desertpits.....ok. What exactly are you doing that you are giving credit to Cesar for? Just curious.
Also, there is very little that Cesar does that is a new technique developed by him - most of it is rehashed old fashioned training polished up a little bit for TV coated with some fancy, misleading wordage. (I think he gets credit for that annoying SHHHHTTTT sound that accompanies the finger jab, though. ;D)
|
|
|
|
Post by catstina on Nov 17, 2010 9:27:28 GMT -5
I watched an episode last night because it featured two Traditional Shar Pei (Peis?). The problem was that the male would bark at strangers who came up to his gate. Then if the strangers kept pestering the dog by standing near the gate and staring at him he would get frustrated and redirect his aggression by attacking the female. Cesar chased the dog around the yard for 16 minutes and he was cured of his DA! MAGIC! The part that really baffled me, though, was that the family got the second dog to help their male dog deal with his dog aggression... How did they come to the conclusion that if their dog is aggressive and violent with other dogs, getting an other dog would help?? The craziest part is that they left their dogs alone in the backyard, unsupervised all day long! Cesar saw no problem with this! They just needed to show their dogs who boss and that would cure DA!! What the Hell kind of advise is that??  !!!  |
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Nov 17, 2010 10:38:32 GMT -5
I don't normally post on threads that I have no experience with the subject; I've never seen a CM episode (I don't have premium TV). But I have to say that this speaks volumes... Andrew Luescher, DVM, Ph.D, DACVB Review submitted to National Geographic by (edited) Is it possible that CM exaggerates his methods for the video camera? Another thing about NatGeo in general... most nature journalists and photojournalists set up situations, embellish and "cut and paste" to get their point across or to illustrate a given situation. I would imagine CM does the same thing. |
|
Sept 23, 2015 11:44:53 GMT -5
I look forward to learning much here
Nov 11, 2015 17:39:08 GMT -5
I look forward to learning much here
Nov 11, 2015 17:39:08 GMT -5
May 11, 2016 11:43:25 GMT -5
May 11, 2016 11:43:25 GMT -5