|
|
Post by marc on Jul 27, 2011 11:25:35 GMT -5
So there are times, lots of them, even inside without distraction, that Jackie wont do her basic obedience commands. Usually tied to when i dont have something to make her work for as reward. Sometimes i just ask for a sit, she just looks and looks at me. Other times, if i have food or if we walk over to go out...she'll default to sit, or when is ask, sit, b/c he gets to go out. Problems get worse with distractions, but we continue to work on that.
Is perhaps my relationship still not formed right with Jackie? Is it a leadership thing?
|
|
|
|
Post by sugar on Jul 27, 2011 13:46:44 GMT -5
Chubby does that sometimes. Normally get understands and sits when I ask. Sometimes he just looks at me and walks backwards for a few steps and then just stands. If I repeated "sit" he just keeps backing up! lol
I think sometimes dogs are just like that, but I'm in no way an expert on behavior.
|
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Jul 27, 2011 16:45:24 GMT -5
it's not a leadership/relationship thing.
it's a training thing.
Possibly you need to be more patient to wait her out until she sits after you give the command ONCE.
Or go back to basics and lure her into a sit while giving the command. (but be sure to fade out the treats until they are completely random and unpredictable.. you don't want her to believe that she only has to sit if she gets a treat)
|
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jul 27, 2011 19:36:24 GMT -5
(but be sure to fade out the treats until they are completely random and unpredictable.. you don't want her to believe that she only has to sit if she gets a treat) Ditto to that! She's got it the wrong way around. She wants a treat, so she offers a behavior that she thinks will get her what she wants. |
|
|
|
Post by marc on Jul 28, 2011 5:44:06 GMT -5
thanks for the info...so after all this time she really still doesn't know what sit/down/wait/stay/come means?
Hard to believe but i'll give it a whirl.
|
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jul 28, 2011 9:15:04 GMT -5
Marc, have you done clicker training with her?
|
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Jul 28, 2011 10:00:44 GMT -5
thanks for the info...so after all this time she really still doesn't know what sit/down/wait/stay/come means? Hard to believe but i'll give it a whirl. you have to base your assumptions on reality. If your observation is that she doesn't do her commands when you give them, then NO she doesn't "know" them. It doesn't matter how long you've been working with her, or what your expectations are. "Knowing" means "doing". When you tell her, every time. Well, ok, maybe not EVERY time because they are living creatures after all!... but MOST of the time. Raise your standards. Set her up to succeed, and to learn what the commands mean. Go back to basics. Baby steps. |
|
|
|
Post by marc on Jul 28, 2011 11:07:31 GMT -5
yes, both clicker but i tend to use the verbal marker "yes" instead of a click b/c she seemed to respond ok with that. Marc, have you done clicker training with her? |
|
|
|
Post by marc on Jul 28, 2011 11:10:32 GMT -5
the whole thing perplexes me but i will go back to starting over a bit and work the basics back into a daily routine, spread across the day. I am also trying to correlate if there are situations, environments, or her mental/stimulus state where she isn't listening, but 've yet to find something. thanks for the info...so after all this time she really still doesn't know what sit/down/wait/stay/come means? Hard to believe but i'll give it a whirl. you have to base your assumptions on reality. If your observation is that she doesn't do her commands when you give them, then NO she doesn't "know" them. It doesn't matter how long you've been working with her, or what your expectations are. "Knowing" means "doing". When you tell her, every time. Well, ok, maybe not EVERY time because they are living creatures after all!... but MOST of the time. Raise your standards. Set her up to succeed, and to learn what the commands mean. Go back to basics. Baby steps. |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jul 29, 2011 8:09:52 GMT -5
Hey Marc, this is absolutely a training thing, and she's reading the environment for clues about what to do/when to respond.
It sounds like food may have become a crutch. She has learned that the behavior should occur when food is present.
So to break this down in babysteps to make it as simple as possible for her, this is what I'd do:
1) Pick a simple behavior like sit and start from square one. Practice Sit in a variety of locations/situations - don't ask more than once. If you are having a problem with her responding, go back to kindergarten, lure/prompt, and then reward EVERY correct response.
2) Once you feel she is reliable, switch to random reinforcement - let's say out of 10 sits, you reward 7 - 8 of the best ones.
3) Practice training sessions (even if they are only a minute or two long) where food "magically" appears after the behavior is performed. The dog has to think no matter what there is always the possibility for payment. I'll do training sessions for instance where food is off in a bowl somewhere (I'm not carrying it/holding ).
4) Find out what else drives your dog other than food - as you are moving to random reinforcement (#2), you also have to begin to vary your rewards - play, toys, freedom (i.e. you ask for a sit, get it, and then as a reward "Yes!" and the opportunity to run or move forward to sniff some exciting scent, etc).
Randomly rewarding and varying the rewards are SUPER important steps otherwise you will get stuck with a dog who only responds to cues when there is very blatantly food present in her face.
Hope this makes sense, lemme know if you have any questions.....
|
|
|
|
Post by melonie on Jul 30, 2011 12:05:15 GMT -5
It took me 6 mos to get my pug to sit reliably. It took like a week to get Scarlett to sit, though not consistently. Rhett used to sit fairly regular on command, but since I got him back, it is almost impossible to get him to sit unless I place my hand on his rump. A food lure only makes him walk away and check to see what Winston has, and try to steal it.
But I'm working on it.
It can be frustrating but I have faith Rhett, and Jackie will 'get it'!
|
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Jul 30, 2011 12:33:29 GMT -5
It took me 6 mos to get my pug to sit reliably. It took like a week to get Scarlett to sit, though not consistently. Rhett used to sit fairly regular on command, but since I got him back, it is almost impossible to get him to sit unless I place my hand on his rump. A food lure only makes him walk away and check to see what Winston has, and try to steal it. But I'm working on it. It can be frustrating but I have faith Rhett, and Jackie will 'get it'! all dogs know how to sit.. they do it all the time! Can you try catching him in the act of sitting on his own, give the command and praise/treat? |
|
|
|
Post by melonie on Jul 30, 2011 16:53:27 GMT -5
Emily, That's what I've been doing with him with any of the behaviors I'm trying to encourage.
|
|
|
|
Post by marc on Jul 31, 2011 12:41:21 GMT -5
Randomly rewarding and varying the rewards are SUPER important steps otherwise you will get stuck with a dog who only responds to cues when there is very blatantly food present in her face. Hope this makes sense, lemme know if you have any questions.....[/quote thanks Mary, this sounds like what MIGHT be happening. i notice she's better when food or some other reward is around. not so responsive when there isn't anything within smell/sight for her. also, when working with a bait bag, i notice a lot of times she seems to throw a sit, for a down, etc. that's different, right? which means she still might not what down or sit means? |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Aug 10, 2011 7:24:12 GMT -5
Sounds like she's trying things out to see what works, or getting a little confused. Ignore the wrong response, encourage her to get up and move around a little, then cue the behavior again.
|
|
|
|
Post by marc on Aug 25, 2011 11:17:27 GMT -5
Ok, so since my original post, i've been working in short sessions, varying reward schedules, and the level of reward. I work with her on walks, in the house, in and out of doors, etc.
I'm still not seeing much progress so maybe i'm doing things wrong. I am still convinced that she knows the commands, because when i have her attention or something else does not, i can whisper a command and she does it pretty well.
However, around distractions, i can't get her back. Sometime she seems nervous around distractions (she shy's away, will cower, or if tuned into something, and i touch her, she'll jump).
Other times she'll just be hyperactive, out of control, and go nuts around people and dogs(Mary, you saw some of this when you tried to greet her the other day at Laureal).
So am i dealing with an anxuious/nervous dog here and need a different training/behavioral approach?
Just looking for some help.
|
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Aug 26, 2011 7:06:55 GMT -5
Marc, Jackie did not seem anxious or nervous when I saw her on Saturday, just excited. What sort of food are you feeding her?
Also, what sort of environments do you typically expose her to during training sessions? It's hard for a dog to go from their home turf to, say, an event like Loreal and hold it together, especially when they already tend towards being an excitable type.
I have some ideas I'll post after you respond, and I'm thinking more on this in the mean time.
|
|
|
|
Post by marc on Aug 26, 2011 13:49:01 GMT -5
What sort of food are you feeding her? Taste of the Wild. We switch flavors. THey run about 25% protien Also, what sort of environments do you typically expose her to during training sessions? I work with her at home, in the back yard, and in the front yard. We've tried at times to take her where we could get her near dogs/people, but it is hard to even get her to a close distance there. I have some ideas I'll post after you respond, and I'm thinking more on this in the mean time. Let me provide some additional detail/scenarios that maybe give you a better idea on her overall. 1. When away from the home, if there are people around, like when i walk her near the beach, she's manageable at times. So long as we dont get too close to a person, she'll not pull or zone out too much. I can even get her to a point where she'll sit and play attention games with me. If a stranger approaches, she has no greeting manners. She'll zone out on me, focus on them, jump, pull, bark, whine, etc. If i go the opposite direction, i'll almost be dragging her away. 2. Access to other dogs. Even dogs coming over to our house to play, that she already knows, i can't control Jackie once she sees them. She jumps, yelps, barks... gets frustrated on the leash until she can get to them, and go play with them. When we see dogs on leash out on our walks, she'll get all excited, fixated on them, and if they start to bark, she'll repeat the behavior above....until i can get her far enough away.(This is what you didn't see at Loreal. We got out of the car and gave distance to the people and dogs walking by, and she would bark and whine all of the time. Zoning out on general walks: on the same path we take every day. Her nose is in control(maybe its the hound in her). We can manage pretty well with a loose leash when she walks, but her mind is not on me. This last week, we started walking the same route, but instead of 1PM, we changed to 530AM. it is like a completely new world to her This is when i can "tap" her and she jumps/pulls away. |
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Aug 31, 2011 8:54:27 GMT -5
I'd try to switch to a food with lower protein, 18%.
Some other things I'm just gonna throw out to you:
*Try a Gentle Leader
*Put her on Calm Shen for the time being
*Take her to locations where you can work on basics while there are distractions in the distance
*Enlist someone to help you work on greetings. Do NOT let her greet until she is showing acceptable behavior. Stay in one spot, have a greeter standing at a distance where Jackie can still sit and contain herself. Then have the greeter move forward a foot or two. If Jackie gets up, the greeter takes a step back. When Jackie settles, the greeter takes another step foward. If Jackie remains seated, the greeter will take another step forward. If Jackie gets up, the greeter takes a step back. And so on.
*Instead of retyping directions here, I am going to post a reactive dog protocol for you when I get home that I think you will find helpful. Even though Jackie isn't reactive in an aggressive or fearful sense, the exercises will be of great help.
|
|
|
|
Post by marc on Aug 31, 2011 15:51:38 GMT -5
thanks Mary. I need to figure out something more for greetings. if someone comes to my house and i take her away or have them go into another room, Jackie will pretty much freak out even when people go out of site. Should i crate her? or wait her out in another room?
|
|
I look forward to learning much here