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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 30, 2011 11:12:41 GMT -5
Ya know, I pinned a staunch "it's all about how an organism interacts with its environment" behavior analyst to the wall after a lot of back and forth discussion on Pit Bulls and she said that the breed's physical conformation probably makes it more adept at fighting which in turn leads to more reinforcement for the behavior. And I said, so in essence, regardless of whether it's "genes" or conformation, you ARE saying that the breed is more likely to develop dog aggression. In a nut shell, she said yes.
I'm very behaviorist-minded, but I cannot let go of the notion that selective breeding impacts behavior. I've not read, heard or seen anything that would allow me to do so.
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Post by johnr on Nov 30, 2011 11:30:07 GMT -5
Which is probably at least to some extent a hangover from the behaviorist (in the scientific theory sense) propensity to severely downplay or deny innate behaviors, a position thoroughly discredited by evolutionary ethology going back to the work of Konrad Lorenz and in human psychology by the Chomskyan cognitive science revolution, which goes back at least as far as Noam Chomsky's 1957 review of BF Skinner's absolutely insipid book Verbal Behavior. The inadequacy of behaviorism as a scientific theory is really, really old news and it's depressing to see it used as THE foundation of so much applied stuff. well, admittedly it is a challenge to separate the innate (genetic) behavioral characteristics from those that are environmental.. and there is certainly overlap. But as I keep saying to these people: if "breed" means anything, it's about appearance AND behavior. Every behavior exists on a bell curve in any particular dog. If you track a particular behavior through dogs of a particular breed, the curve WILL be skewed. Yes, it's complicated and there are feedback loops and back and forth interactions and, yes, most behavioral tendencies are indeed tendencies, not ironclad universals, in breeds. But look at nature. Is it really just some amazing coincidence all Honey Badgers adopt over the top aggression as a survival strategy in a way that even most predators don't. If this behavior is so "rewarding" to Honey Badgers, why isn't it equally rewarding to other animals? And how about spider mothers who basically paralyze themselves and llow their young to eat them alive? (Yeah, real nature ain't a Disney movie.) When and where did they "learn" this obviously programmed behavior? But even when there is a clear environmental component, it often works like a toggle switch. Sex in crocodilians is not genetically determined the way it is in animals with X vs Y chromosomes. It is determined by prevailing climatic conditions, with warmer, better weather producing females to maximize procreational opportunities when the going is good and cooler weather produces a bunch of males to compete for the few females. But basically the environment just flips a switch one way or the other. While there is some hermaphroditism in crocodilians, just as there are in pretty much all species, there isn't a smooth gradation from male to female, but a cut off and a switch. The genes that would make a male are suppressed and those to make a female are switched on or vice versa. To deny the HUGE genetic component to this is simply silly. You can say that crocodilians are genetically programmed to determine sex from ambient environmental cues. Indeed, that is exactly how you SHOULD put it, given that organism with different genes don't respond this way and non-organisms aren't sexual at all. (As a cognitive psychologist professor of mine was wont to say whenever a student tried to pull a pure Skinnerian "explanation" of human learning as conditioning: "Ok, humans adapt to their environment by learning. Rocks don't. Why?" |
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Post by johnr on Nov 30, 2011 11:35:18 GMT -5
Ya know, I pinned a staunch "it's all about how an organism interacts with its environment" behavior analyst to the wall after a lot of back and forth discussion on Pit Bulls and she said that the breed's physical conformation probably makes it more adept at fighting which in turn leads to more reinforcement for the behavior. And I said, so in essence, regardless of whether it's "genes" or conformation, you ARE saying that the breed is more likely to develop dog aggression. In a nut shell, she said yes. I'm very behaviorist-minded, but I cannot let go of the notion that selective breeding impacts behavior. I've not read, heard or seen anything that would allow me to do so. But the details of Pit Bull breeding clinch the case for a strong genetic component, as Pit Bulls defeat dogs of larger, more powerful breeds through tenacity and a "no holds barred" mentality, not by overpowering them. The discussion of Pit Bulls vs Tosas in Carl Semencic's old book was quite telling. When the Tosa won, it was by overpowering the Pit Bull in a short match. When the Pit Bull won, it was by outlasting the Tosa in a long war of attrition. And Pit Bulls won the overwhelming majority of the matches. QED |
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 30, 2011 11:59:51 GMT -5
Ya know, I pinned a staunch "it's all about how an organism interacts with its environment" behavior analyst to the wall after a lot of back and forth discussion on Pit Bulls and she said that the breed's physical conformation probably makes it more adept at fighting which in turn leads to more reinforcement for the behavior. And I said, so in essence, regardless of whether it's "genes" or conformation, you ARE saying that the breed is more likely to develop dog aggression. In a nut shell, she said yes. I'm very behaviorist-minded, but I cannot let go of the notion that selective breeding impacts behavior. I've not read, heard or seen anything that would allow me to do so. But the details of Pit Bull breeding clinch the case for a strong genetic component, as Pit Bulls defeat dogs of larger, more powerful breeds through tenacity and a "no holds barred" mentality, not by overpowering them. The discussion of Pit Bulls vs Tosas in Carl Semencic's old book was quite telling. When the Tosa won, it was by overpowering the Pit Bull in a short match. When the Pit Bull won, it was by outlasting the Tosa in a long war of attrition. And Pit Bulls won the overwhelming majority of the matches. QED Pit Bulls are by far the most adept at fighting - just let go the notion of being more prone to fight than other breeds. The fact that they can be so devesating and unrelenting is enough of a reason to exercise caution when they are around other animals. (I know this is highly un-PC to say, and some would say I am "hurting" the breed by making such statements.  ) |
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Post by johnr on Nov 30, 2011 12:08:03 GMT -5
But the details of Pit Bull breeding clinch the case for a strong genetic component, as Pit Bulls defeat dogs of larger, more powerful breeds through tenacity and a "no holds barred" mentality, not by overpowering them. The discussion of Pit Bulls vs Tosas in Carl Semencic's old book was quite telling. When the Tosa won, it was by overpowering the Pit Bull in a short match. When the Pit Bull won, it was by outlasting the Tosa in a long war of attrition. And Pit Bulls won the overwhelming majority of the matches. QED Pit Bulls are by far the most adept at fighting - just let go the notion of being more prone to fight than other breeds. The fact that they can be so devesating and unrelenting is enough of a reason to exercise caution when they are around other animals. (I know this is highly un-PC to say, and some would say I am "hurting" the breed by making such statements. ) They are the best and most tenacious fighters. When's the last time you heard of a bunch of Beagles or even Airedales being brought in on a dog fighting bust? Dog fighters bet on their matches. They want to win. So they have the dogs that will allow them to win. Period. I couldn't care less how un-PC the truth is. The truth is the truth. Pit Bulls are NOT the only breed that can end up hurting or killing other pets. Not by a long shot. But there aren't many dogs who are potentially a menace to animals bigger than them, nor are there many who will be as focussed and relentless as Pit Bulls commonly are when problems do erupt. This is both good and bad. I would never get as close to two fighting GSDs or Rotties, etc as I have frequently gotten to two fighting Pit Bulls (or one Pit Bull clobbering another dog). But you're in for a workout getting them apart. |
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Post by johnr on Nov 30, 2011 13:59:10 GMT -5
Here's a link to Noam Chomsky's total annihilation of B F Skinner's "Verbal Behavior": www.chomsky.info/articles/1967----.htmAnd some other aggravations on the job put this line into my mind, which fits this thread: "Don't tell them the dog may dog aggressive. You'll spoil the surprise!" I'm having another of those "why do I even bother?" kinds of days down at the old animal shelter ... |
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Post by suziriot on Nov 30, 2011 16:51:19 GMT -5
And some other aggravations on the job put this line into my mind, which fits this thread: "Don't tell them the dog may dog aggressive. You'll spoil the surprise!"   |
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Post by melonie on Nov 30, 2011 18:38:20 GMT -5
uhg, I typed up a HUGE long email to stubby dog, and sent them links to the photobucket album. I meant to paste in what I typed, then got side tracked and forgot about it!! In short I told them the story, the history, and asked them to please tell their reader to use caution and common sense, and never to leave animals unattended. etc etc etc. I sent them the link to my photobucket album, and I have uploaded photos that I had from previous fights. I took some of Winston last night. s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu314/mellowknee/ |
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Post by johnr on Nov 30, 2011 19:54:09 GMT -5
And some other aggravations on the job put this line into my mind, which fits this thread: "Don't tell them the dog may dog aggressive. You'll spoil the surprise!" I'm cynically parodying certain volunteers who keep saying that this or that dog isn't getting application because staff have labelled it "not good with other animals" or "food aggressive", as though taking the label off even though the labels are accurate would somehow make things better. Yeah, sure, keep serious behavioral concerns a big secret to pump up adoptions. And then when the behavior manifests, SURPRISE! I can't believe I have to explain to adults why this is not a good idea. |
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Post by suziriot on Nov 30, 2011 23:01:39 GMT -5
^ Yeah, there are way too many people in rescue/shelter work who think that removing the label somehow removes the problem. To me it's the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "lalalalalalalalala" while you're trying to tell them something important. Come to think of it, it's not just a problem in rescue... it's a problem with humanity. Most people seem to live in their own versions of reality.  |
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Post by RealPitBull on Dec 1, 2011 8:55:16 GMT -5
Most people seem to live in their own versions of reality. No joke. It's a sad fact that for most people, ignorance is bliss. |
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Post by johnr on Dec 1, 2011 9:05:30 GMT -5
Most people seem to live in their own versions of reality. No joke. It's a sad fact that for most people, ignorance is bliss. Yep! |
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Post by RealPitBull on Dec 1, 2011 9:07:35 GMT -5
BTW, props to you guys who sent pix and caveats to Stubby Dog.
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Post by catstina on Dec 1, 2011 9:37:55 GMT -5
Lets see if they use my whole write up. I talked about how Benny and Bowie didn't get along immediately and it took a lot of work to get them to that point and even then I never left them together unsupervised.
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Post by melonie on Dec 1, 2011 23:42:17 GMT -5
I heard back from The Stubby Dog today. Hi Melonie, Thanks for reaching out and I'm so sorry about this incident. I cannot imagine how scary and sad the whole event was (and still is) for you. I agree that any dog needs to be supervised while playing with other animals, dogs, anyone. This isn't a pit bull thing, it is a dog thing in general. When we do the 'furry friends' theme, we are also having articles from animal behaviorists and vets about responsible play, introducing dogs/animals to each other and other important issues. We want to make sure to educate while sharing these stories. Again, thank you! I really appreciate your concern and caution. Laura Petrolino VP of Operations 865-809-7047 laurap@stubbydog.org www.stubbydog.org |
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Post by RealPitBull on Dec 2, 2011 8:24:06 GMT -5
Of course all dogs fight. Not all dogs fight like Pit Bulls. Wonder if Laura has ever lived with multiple Pit Bulls and actually had to manage dog-directed aggression?
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Post by johnr on Dec 2, 2011 8:36:34 GMT -5
Of course all dogs fight. Not all dogs fight like Pit Bulls. Wonder if Laura has ever lived with multiple Pit Bulls and actually had to manage dog-directed aggression? Exactly. This response infuriated the hell out of me. |
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Post by michele5611 on Dec 2, 2011 9:03:07 GMT -5
Oh yes but acknowledging that pit bulls fight differently than other dogs would be admitting…gasp…. that pit bulls are not like every other dog and we know this is in direct conflict with the pinker manifesto.
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Post by RealPitBull on Dec 2, 2011 9:08:12 GMT -5
Oh yes but acknowledging that pit bulls fight differently than other dogs would be admitting…gasp…. that pit bulls are not like every other dog and we know this is in direct conflict with the pinker manifesto. So true.  |
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Post by lowrider on Dec 2, 2011 9:08:49 GMT -5
I've been a long term lurker, I joined over a year ago while we were researching rescuing a Pit Bull. I've been in love with Pit Bulls for awhile now, not only because of their beauty, athleticism, and loyalty, but also because of how their viewed publicly. Well we didn't rescue a Pit Bull last year, but I've always had it in the back of my mind that we would some day. A little history on us, Me and my wife are in our mid 30's and love all types of dogs, but we are with out a doubt a Mastiff family. We have a 1 year 8 month old female, and a 6 1/2 month old boy. We love the mastiff temperament! Although my girl hardly fits that description, she's way more active than my boy who would rather sleep than play. But she's not very typical for a Mastiff, at 120 lbs she's small for the breed and very agile, her grace amazes us daily. Our boy is everything a Mastiff should be, most importantly...lazy! We've gone back and forth about rescuing Mastiffs, but with the state of bully breeds, I feel the pull to help, since there are so many in need. I understand the difference here stated between the APBT and a bully breed. I probably couldn't pick out an APBT from a line up of other pit mixes, but when I'm researching adopting a dog that looks like a pit, this is the resource I come to. It's so odd that in the everyday society people that should, and you would expect to know the difference, just don't. It's been many times that while talking to people about their Pit Bulls, color is always brought up, i.e. blue nose, red nose, etc. and for Pit Bull enthusiasts, I expect more. Well to make this long story longer, I was in Pet Smart a couple of weekends ago, and the County Animal Shelter had their adoptees there. As I walked in I saw the most handsome brindle boy calmly sitting in his crate, eyeballing me. I made my way around the store getting what I came for and then approached him and he immediately pushed face up to the crate so I could rub his cheek. They had him labeled as a pit/retriever mix. Unfortunately, at that time we had just had a major surgery on our 11 year old cat, (he's no longer a he... his urethra kept blocking, so they made him a girl... ughhh  ) so in the back of my mind I was thinking now's not the time to bring another animal in. But, I kept checking the shelters website to see if the had him listed, he wasn't so I assumed he got adopted, after all he was so handsome and so very sweet... Well, I checked the website again yesterday, and their he was! www.petango.com/Adopt/Dog-Retriever-Labrador-12939703So, I snuck on over there while running around for work, and he was indeed very sweet and seemed very responsive to verbal commands. Came when I called, and as long as I was petting him he was right by me, as soon as I stopped he was off investigating the enclosure. He'd chase a ball, pick it up, and then drop it to investigate something else. There were other dogs in another fenced in area that were barking at him and he would run up to them, sniff, than wander around some more. He never barked. When I let him out, the employees made sure the other dogs were put up, they said he's a little exuberant when playing with other dogs, and because of his size it can be a little rough. Now remember, I have Mastiffs, so as they kept referring to him as a "big" dog I was chuckling. He might be 65 lbs... They said he doesn't realize how big he is, I told them I have 120 lbs girl at the house that has the same problem... Once you have Mastiff vision "big" takes on a different meaning. I went home for lunch and shared with my wife what I had done... and showed her this picture:  My wife is a sweetheart and honestly can't go into Pet Smart on weekends, because of the adoption dogs, and she would never go into a shelter. And I wouldn't want her too! I can't deal with ugly face crying... She had made up her mind... we were getting another furkid! But, I told her we need to really sit on it and think about this. She said the decision was mine to make. Sitting on the couch last night, I read this thread. And then I let her read it, she didn't want to discuss it last night, which means she wanted the time to absorb what she's read and work through it on her own. Right now, I'm not sure if we'll be able to adopt him. I would never want to put my wife in a position of splitting up dogs fighting, she's not made for it. We live in a crappy neighborhood where everyone has the best dog evarrr!!! and they all run free, makes it very stressful for us to walk ours on leash, she has already been bitten once, when a loose dog came up to our girl, and a confrontation unfolded. It was very quick and was then over, but she had to have a few stitches. It was completely my fault, for allowing a loose dog come that close. My girl, don't like that shit, and gets very reactive if she's on a leash. If she's loose, no issue at all. We've learned a lot from our Bighead. Btw, our kids names our: Princess Bighead, aka Miss P, aka Baby Girl or Bighead. Our boy is Sully Monster, aka Sullman, Silly Sully, or just lil' monster. I just wanted to share this with y'all, I'm not sure if we'll be rescuing him yet or not, but wanted to thank everyone for their input and work they've done with Pit Bulls. John |
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) so in the back of my mind I was thinking now's not the time to bring another animal in. But, I kept checking the shelters website to see if the had him listed, he wasn't so I assumed he got adopted, after all he was so handsome and so very sweet... Well, I checked the website again yesterday, and their he was!
