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Post by emilys on Apr 23, 2013 11:49:45 GMT -5
animalfarmfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/high-pain-tolerance-myth/This just epitomizes the problem I have with the AFF propaganda. Select a trait. Distort what defenders actually say. Make up sh** (in this case, for example: no one ever says that it's ok to allow children to manhandle a pit bull, despite their KNOWN TOLERANCE for physical abuse) and voila! No breed traits! Anyone who talks about breed traits is just supporting BSL. Tolerance for pain (NOT "doesn't feel pain") has for 100+ years been a characteristic selected for in the APBT. It's why vets love to treat our dogs. It's why they ARE good with kids. It's a GOOD thing. It doesn't excuse or justify mistreatment/cruelty. It doesn't mean that breed advocates are saying, "hey go out and beat up your pit bull; he won't mind." Duh. And it does not support the assh*** gameboy cultists and oldtime dogmen for using it to minimize the horrors of dogfighters. But it exists. And this blog continues to beg the question: why exactly do these people advocate for pit bulls if there's nothing distinctive about them?
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 25, 2013 13:41:59 GMT -5
It's about a completely different philosophy.
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Post by emilys on Apr 25, 2013 14:40:31 GMT -5
It's about a completely different philosophy. can you describe what their philosophy is?
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 25, 2013 14:53:29 GMT -5
From what I gather by trying to erase the thing the BSL supporters are trying to ban, there is nothing left for them to ban and they will move on.
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Post by melonie on Apr 25, 2013 15:29:23 GMT -5
From what I gather by trying to erase the thing the BSL supporters are trying to ban, there is nothing left for them to ban and they will move on. Thank you for putting it simply. Too bad they are just setting up the dogs and families who own them to fail.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 26, 2013 7:38:18 GMT -5
PS just had to say that I love the title of this thread LOL
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 28, 2013 1:32:54 GMT -5
I don't think that blog was targeting rescues in that they said they are not created or made differently. Some dogs have a high pain tolerance and some dogs have a low pain tolerance. Lumping all types together and saying "they" can deal with pain a lot better than other dogs or they an take abuse from children gives the idea that if the dog is soft and cowers from a stern no or can't deal with kids they are a bad dog. I didn't take if to mean saying their brains aren't wired differently from another dog means they can or can't take pain one way or the other. Just explaining dogs are dogs and what one might be fine with another one might not be ok with.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 29, 2013 7:46:53 GMT -5
I don't think that blog was targeting rescues in that they said they are not created or made differently. Some dogs have a high pain ole range and some dogs have a low pain tolerance. Lumping all types together and saying "they" can deal with pain a lot better than other dogs or they an take abuse from children gives the idea that if the dog is soft and cowers from a stern no or can't deal with kids they are a bad dog. Soooo much extrapolation. Please don't put words in peoples' mouths. You might get a better reception. Jus' sayin' I think anyone who knows the breed recognizes that especially some of the gamey type dogs tend to be REAL soft with people (Cinimon Clark used the word "humble" in her vid, which I love). They are STILL solid dogs with high tolerance for abuse. Tolerance in terms of it taking a LOT to get them to retaliate (i.e. this is why they do not redirect, and I personally use redirection as a strong reason to NOT take a dog into RPB's adoption program). It doesn't mean they do not FEEL. They are actually highly sensitive towards people, i.e. receptive towards and respectful of space. Deferential is the word I use. But they also just sit back and "take it" when other breeds would have bitten long ago.
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 29, 2013 10:05:29 GMT -5
What are you talking about? These words are from MY mouth. How I INTERPRETED what was written in the link provided. I also do disagree with the OP opinion, it's not putting words in a mouth, I'm missing something I guess. The article is pretty spot on IMO. I think the opinion saying all pit bulls have a high pain tolerance is like saying all pit bulls will attack every dogs. Its not true. Talking in ALL and EVERY is the red herring not trying to get people to stop putting chains around their dogs necks cause they "can take the pain so much better." Doesn't meant you should put a chain around your dogs neck.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 29, 2013 10:07:20 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Ames, I'm just having a really difficult time following your train of thought. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.
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Post by emilys on Apr 29, 2013 10:17:05 GMT -5
What are you talking about? These words are from MY mouth. How I INTERPRETED what was written in the link provided. I also do disagree with the OP opinion, it's not putting words in a mouth, I'm missing something I guess. The article is pretty spot on IMO. I think the opinion saying all pit bulls have a high pain tolerance is like saying all pit bulls will attack every dogs. Its not true. Talking in ALL and EVERY is the red herring not trying to get people to stop putting chains around their dogs necks cause they "can take the pain so much better." Doesn't meant you should put a chain around your dogs neck. see you've just expressed the red herring. NO ONE SAYS that "all" pit bulls have a blah blah blah. This is one of a series of AFF propaganda pieces proclaiming that pit bulls don't have blah blah blah and they're all individuals.... And because breed isn't "predictive" (which again NO ONE SAYS it is), therefore all breed traits should be discounted. And if you talk about a breed trait, you're on the same page as those as support BSL. In a nutshell, that is the problem. And again begs the question: WHAT IT IS IT about "pit bulls" that these people advocate for? Maybe you can answer the question for yourself.
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 29, 2013 19:31:42 GMT -5
The article didn't say All either, Depends on which you mean before I can answer. I don't know how I am on the same page as those that support BDL because I believe poorly bred mixed dogs get called or labeled as the BREED pit bull. Not sure how to answer your question until you tell me what is meant by the "pit bull". "Pit Bull" as the American Pit Bull Terrier? Or Pit Bull as in any dog who looks like it might be a pit bull? or "pit bull" as AmStaff, Ambully, APBT, Staffy Bull? But as a dog advocate I feel bad for all the well bred APBT that get lumped with BYB crap dogs who are labeled as being the same breed they are. I feel bad for any dog that gets labeled as bad when an owner is properly managing their dog, no matter what issue they may or may not have, as long as they are managed properly it shouldn't be an issue whatever breed they are.
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Post by catstina on Apr 29, 2013 19:40:58 GMT -5
Not sure how to answer your question until you tell me what is meant by the "pit bull". " When you're on this forum, just assume that people mean Pit Bull, not "any dog with short hair and a blocky head," when they say Pit Bull.
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Post by emilys on Apr 29, 2013 19:53:20 GMT -5
The article didn't say All either, Depends on which you mean before I can answer. I don't know how I am on the same page as those that support BDL because I believe poorly bred mixed dogs get called or labeled as the BREED pit bull. Not sure how to answer your question until you tell me what is meant by the "pit bull". "Pit Bull" as the American Pit Bull Terrier? Or Pit Bull as in any dog who looks like it might be a pit bull? or "pit bull" as AmStaff, Ambully, APBT, Staffy Bull? But as a dog advocate I feel bad for all the well bred APBT that get lumped with BYB crap dogs who are labeled as being the same breed they are. I feel bad for any dog that gets labeled as bad when an owner is properly managing their dog, no matter what issue they may or may not have, as long as they are managed properly it shouldn't be an issue whatever breed they are. Really I don't know how I could be more clear about my point of view 1) a "pit bull" is an APBT/AST. Regardless of whether it's a well bred one or not. Regardless of what stupid or illinformed people say. Badly bred pit bulls deserve advocacy from pit bull advocates. Mixed breed dogs that some stupid or ill-informed people call a "pit bull" do not... they can have their own advocacy group. Maybe "Dogs that some people call a pit bull even though they don't seem to know what a pit bull is legal news" 2) it is NOT necessary to see papers in order to conclude, reasonably, whether a particular dog is an AST/APBT or a mixed breed. Regardless of assertions made by people who say they are advocating for the breed. (and indeed, the existence of "papers" does not prove a dog is purebred either, as some registries are notorious for paperhanging) If you attribute ANY OTHER point of view to me and then criticize me for that alleged view, that's a red herring. I am baffled that you express sadness for well bred APBTs when you still have not, as far as I have read, defined what it is about the APBT you like... even in your own dog. I literally have no idea what YOU think defines an APBT other than, perhaps, some papers. And I'm not aware that I have accused YOU of giving aid/comfort to BSL... on the contrary, it's AFF and its supporters, including Kim, who accuse ME and RPB of giving aid/comfort to BSL by describing actual breed traits.
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Post by Dave on Apr 29, 2013 20:41:05 GMT -5
I don't think that blog was targeting rescues in that they said they are not created or made differently. Some dogs have a high pain tolerance and some dogs have a low pain tolerance. Lumping all types together and saying "they" can deal with pain a lot better than other dogs or they an take abuse from children gives the idea that if the dog is soft and cowers from a stern no or can't deal with kids they are a bad dog. I didn't take if to mean saying their brains aren't wired differently from another dog means they can or can't take pain one way or the other. Just explaining dogs are dogs and what one might be fine with another one might not be ok with. Well, my veterinarian has always said she'd rather deal with a pit bull than any other breed. Why, I asked? She said, they tolerate much more than any other breed. She has thirty years experience, and has owned and bred pit bulls all her life. I think there's some truth in that. Really, accept the fact that there are breed traits the Pit Bull is known for. One of them is tolerance for pain. We're not talking about dogs in general. We're talking about dogs that are Pit Bulls. If you want to be an advocate for dogs in general, that's fine. If you want to advocate for Pit Bulls, you need to narrow your focus. Ames, stick around and open your mind. This forum and it's members will educate you. All you have to do is listen.
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 29, 2013 21:00:46 GMT -5
How can I be clear. The APBT and the American Staffordshire Terrier were bred for different reasons. HOW can they be the same dog or be called a pit bull? Some people on here have agreed with that definition. Other have said pit bull mixes. I don't know every person yet, or what they believe. I was asking you, not asking you to speak for the entire forum.
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 29, 2013 21:06:45 GMT -5
I don't think that blog was targeting rescues in that they said they are not created or made differently. Some dogs have a high pain tolerance and some dogs have a low pain tolerance. Lumping all types together and saying "they" can deal with pain a lot better than other dogs or they an take abuse from children gives the idea that if the dog is soft and cowers from a stern no or can't deal with kids they are a bad dog. I didn't take if to mean saying their brains aren't wired differently from another dog means they can or can't take pain one way or the other. Just explaining dogs are dogs and what one might be fine with another one might not be ok with. Well, my veterinarian has always said she'd rather deal with a pit bull than any other breed. Why, I asked? She said, they tolerate much more than any other breed. She has thirty years experience, and has owned and bred pit bulls all her life. I think there's some truth in that. Really, accept the fact that there are breed traits the Pit Bull is known for. One of them is tolerance for pain. We're not talking about dogs in general. We're talking about dogs that are Pit Bulls. If you want to be an advocate for dogs in general, that's fine. If you want to advocate for Pit Bulls, you need to narrow your focus. Ames, stick around and open your mind. This forum and it's members will educate you. All you have to do is listen. My vet says the same thing. As well as a TON of people who I know works with dogs day in and day out. My mind is open, no worries on that aspect. I used to say pit bulls should get special treatment and never trust them not to fight. I have since realized how stupid that is and opened my mind to learn more about that statement and how wrong I was for assuming or saying it when so many dogs are not bred for original purpose. I don't think the article was talking about vet appointments, but I will have to reread because I read it a few days ago. I choose advocate for any dog who is discriminated against by look alone and not by their behavior or who is managing them. The worst manbiter in the world, no matter the breed, if managed correctly would never be a problem! I want all owners to realize the potential of what they are feeding and know how to mange that potential so they don't wind up on the news and make it worse for dogs like mine.
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Post by catstina on Apr 29, 2013 21:18:56 GMT -5
How can I be clear. The APBT and the American Staffordshire Terrier were bred for different reasons. HOW can they be the same dog or be called a pit bull? Some people on here have agreed with that definition. Other have said pit bull mixes. I don't know every person yet, or what they believe. I was asking you, not asking you to speak for the entire forum. I don't think you understand the history of the APBT and AmStaff, they were not "bred for different reasons." I don't know where you got that idea. The breed was originally created and bred for dog fighting. Were they used for other purposes? Sure, but they were created and bred for dog fighting. Breed fanciers wanted AKC recognition for the APBT, but the club initially refused. So, the UKC was created in the 1800's as an alternate registry for the APBT (and other breeds). Some fanciers still wanted AKC recognition, though, so they came up with different possible names for the breed to try and distance it from the dog fighting, American Bull Terrier, Yankee Terrier, etc. Eventually the APBT was accepted by the AKC under the name Staffordshire Terrier. All of the dogs first recognized as Staffordshire Terriers WERE APBTs, no other breeds went into the "creation" of the breed. In the 70's "American" was added to the name to differentiate it from the newly recognized (in the US, that is, it had already been established in the UK since the 30's) Staffordshire Bull Terrier. So, while no other breed went into the creation of the AmStaff, however, decades of breeding for form rather than function have caused some fanciers to say that AmStaffs are now a separate breed. I am not one of those people. I consider them to be different "types" of the same breed, like how GSDs or BCs will have show type and working type dogs. Same breed, different type. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be dogs dual registered as APBTs with the UKC and AmStaffs with the AKC. I hope that cleared things up for you.
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 29, 2013 21:28:40 GMT -5
The article didn't say All either, Depends on which you mean before I can answer. I don't know how I am on the same page as those that support BDL because I believe poorly bred mixed dogs get called or labeled as the BREED pit bull. Not sure how to answer your question until you tell me what is meant by the "pit bull". "Pit Bull" as the American Pit Bull Terrier? Or Pit Bull as in any dog who looks like it might be a pit bull? or "pit bull" as AmStaff, Ambully, APBT, Staffy Bull? But as a dog advocate I feel bad for all the well bred APBT that get lumped with BYB crap dogs who are labeled as being the same breed they are. I feel bad for any dog that gets labeled as bad when an owner is properly managing their dog, no matter what issue they may or may not have, as long as they are managed properly it shouldn't be an issue whatever breed they are. Really I don't know how I could be more clear about my point of view 1) a "pit bull" is an APBT/AST. Regardless of whether it's a well bred one or not. Regardless of what stupid or illinformed people say. Badly bred pit bulls deserve advocacy from pit bull advocates. Mixed breed dogs that some stupid or ill-informed people call a "pit bull" do not... they can have their own advocacy group. Maybe "Dogs that some people call a pit bull even though they don't seem to know what a pit bull is legal news" 2) it is NOT necessary to see papers in order to conclude, reasonably, whether a particular dog is an AST/APBT or a mixed breed. Regardless of assertions made by people who say they are advocating for the breed. (and indeed, the existence of "papers" does not prove a dog is purebred either, as some registries are notorious for paperhanging) If you attribute ANY OTHER point of view to me and then criticize me for that alleged view, that's a red herring. I am baffled that you express sadness for well bred APBTs when you still have not, as far as I have read, defined what it is about the APBT you like... even in your own dog. I literally have no idea what YOU think defines an APBT other than, perhaps, some papers. And I'm not aware that I have accused YOU of giving aid/comfort to BSL... on the contrary, it's AFF and its supporters, including Kim, who accuse ME and RPB of giving aid/comfort to BSL by describing actual breed traits. Not sure what I presented that you took to mean I was diverting the topic, that was not my intent so I will try to be more on topic in the future. But saying the AmStaff, which was bred for a looks not purpose is the same as the APBT which was bred for a purpose not how pretty is it surprises me that so many people consider them the same breed. Its not PAPERS its KNOWING BLOODLINES I don't know how I can be more clear. Papers do NOT make a dog. Bloodlines tell you what BREED a dog is, but it STILL doesn't guarantee your dog will have EVERY trait the breed is known for, and it may have other traits not associated with the breed. Hope that's crystal clear for ya now. Not every APBT is game and not every border collie herds things. All depends on the lines and how it was bred that might give you a chance at herding or having game. there are NEVER guarantees. I don't speak all inclusive. I like to judge each situation and dog for themselves and how they are managed.
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 29, 2013 21:47:56 GMT -5
How can I be clear. The APBT and the American Staffordshire Terrier were bred for different reasons. HOW can they be the same dog or be called a pit bull? Some people on here have agreed with that definition. Other have said pit bull mixes. I don't know every person yet, or what they believe. I was asking you, not asking you to speak for the entire forum. I don't think you understand the history of the APBT and AmStaff, they were not "bred for different reasons." I don't know where you got that idea. The breed was originally created and bred for dog fighting. Were they used for other purposes? Sure, but they were created and bred for dog fighting. Breed fanciers wanted AKC recognition for the APBT, but the club initially refused. So, the UKC was created in the 1800's as an alternate registry for the APBT (and other breeds). Some fanciers still wanted AKC recognition, though, so they came up with different possible names for the breed to try and distance it from the dog fighting, American Bull Terrier, Yankee Terrier, etc. Eventually the APBT was accepted by the AKC under the name Staffordshire Terrier. All of the dogs first recognized as Staffordshire Terriers WERE APBTs, no other breeds went into the "creation" of the breed. In the 70's "American" was added to the name to differentiate it from the newly recognized (in the US, that is, it had already been established in the UK since the 30's) Staffordshire Bull Terrier. So, while no other breed went into the creation of the AmStaff, however, decades of breeding for form rather than function have caused some fanciers to say that AmStaffs are now a separate breed. I am not one of those people. I consider them to be different "types" of the same breed, like how GSDs or BCs will have show type and working type dogs. Same breed, different type. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be dogs dual registered as APBTs with the UKC and AmStaffs with the AKC. I hope that cleared things up for you. You are partially correct. The AmStaff was created for conformation shows in the AKC because the AKC would not allow a dog just bred for fighting to be shown. The APBT breeders could convince the AKC there was a standard and started breeding dogs based off looks, not for the purpose of fighting which is what the APBT was initially created for. After selectively breeding to a standard the American Staffordshire was allowed to be shown in the AKC. AKC AmStaff's were NOT fought, they are the pretty show pups in the pit bull world. They are more regarded as closer to the staffy bull terrier than the APBT, as you said, but I reasearched and found it was more in the 30's when the name changed to include American. To some, even current UKC and ABDA APBT's should not be considered a pit bull to some only a [] dog can be given the breed pit bull. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking, but I do respect how a dog is bred changing from function to form changes the breed of dog. They evolved into being bred just for their looks and did not get points based on wins or losses, they got points for conforming to a standard like current day shows. Which is why I feel they are not the same breed. Once you change WHY the dog is being bred it changes what breed the dog is because your not breeding for the same traits ie pain tolerance, aggression, bite hold you are breeding for slight slope on the withers or 18 inches tall. Shoot you ever talked to some staffy bull owners? Some get SOO pissed when people say they have a pit bull. I think that's why I am so done with trying to talk about breed and just moved onto talking dogs. Its easier than getting people all pissed off about semantics when the real issue is responsible dog ownership. The point is there are MANY ways for people to interpreted the same history. Hope that clears it up a little bit for you as well
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