|
Post by Bella's Mom on May 15, 2014 22:40:30 GMT -5
Bella is the youngest at age 1. She has fought with Natalie a beagle/shep mix, Natalie ended up needing ear surgery. Natalie likes to go up on the 2 old dogs snap and push them for no reason other than they are there. The last time this happened Bella grabbed Natalie by the neck and shook her. It was HARD to get her off but I did. Natalie doesn't mess with the old dogs now..it took more than one attack but I think she finally gets the message. Bella always go there faster than I could. The fight took place near Zoe age 14 once Bella had Natalie Zoe laid down and relaxed like nothing was happening. I don't think this is true dog aggression. She is just hyper protective of the old dogs. Bella will kiss Zoe to the point Zoe who never barks will bark and knock Bella on her back but Bella just gets back up and continues kissing Zoe's face. Bella will play with Natalie and sleep next to her but won't let her too close to the old dogs now. I really thought Bella was going to kill Natalie the last time. Things have been calm now that Natalie leaves the old timers alone. Bella is 1 now that she's had fights will there be problems later? I don't see same sex aggression since the two dogs she protected are girls. Bella is VERY gentle she plays with my rescue macaw. When she was a baby I caught him trying to feed her by regurgitating...he loves Bella and the feeling is mutual. Though I think Bella may have gotten pinched (he pinches when he plays but it hurts sometimes) because she isn't as willing to play with him as much as she use to...he sits on his cage calling for her but she will only go when he has food now. I hear so much about aggression so wanted to get an idea of what to expect now that she has had a few fights.
|
|
|
Post by emilys on May 16, 2014 14:08:07 GMT -5
you are already observing some triggers. 1) Belle's persistent kissing is not protective or affection: it's an aggressive behavior (the key is that Zoe doesn't like it). DONT ALLOW IT. 2) Belle thinks she can tell Natalie what other dogs she can interact with. DONT ALLOW IT. 3) Belle's behavior with the macaw is not relevant. Her behavior with dogs OUTSIDE her housemates isn't necessarily relevant, but I'd caution you to make sure she doesn't start thinking she is allowed to "protect" other dogs either. 4) In my opion if Belle is aggressive/possessive with her housemates, this behavior WILL persist (unless you engage in some kind of serious re-conditioning). My opinion is that Belle is possessive, not protective.
My advice is to watch Belle super super carefully. And in particular, watch the OTHER dogs to see how they are responding... are they growling, moving away, licking their lips, getting stiff? All of those are signs of trouble brewing.
As for Natalie, you need to watch her, too. I'm not sure what "snapping and pushing" means, but it sounds like behavior that is precursor to a possible fight.
|
|
|
Post by maryellen on May 16, 2014 14:21:33 GMT -5
I agree 10000000% with emily
|
|
|
Post by Bella's Mom on May 16, 2014 14:26:56 GMT -5
She loves Zoe...she's kissed her like that since she was a pup. Bella came as a pup Zoe at age 12. The new little puppy down the street does the same thing to Zoe since the first time they met. I'm pretty observant with the dogs and totally know Bella loves Zoe. Bella and Natalie are a different story so I lock Natalie in a room when I leave. Natalie is the little instigator. My goal is Bella and Natalie never have another fight. I've been working with Bella in terms of being around other dogs without being reactive. Need to get a clicker. Natalie will just walk up on one and shove her nose on them and growl and snap her posture reminds me of a coyote.
|
|
|
Post by maryellen on May 16, 2014 15:46:08 GMT -5
just because she kissed her since she was a pup doesn't mean she loves her... your dog is showing you all signs and you are missing them. when one of the dogs is dead you will then realize what Emily means unfortunately...please listen to Emily . I have a dog here who will kiss other dogs and in the blink of an eye change and attack them...its not love..
|
|
|
Post by emilys on May 16, 2014 16:48:05 GMT -5
She loves Zoe...she's kissed her like that since she was a pup. Bella came as a pup Zoe at age 12. you wrote " Bella will kiss Zoe to the point Zoe who never barks will bark and knock Bella on her back but Bella just gets back up and continues kissing Zoe's face." That is simply NOT "love". But the word you use doesn't matter: The only thing that matters is that ZOE IS TELLING YOU THAT SHE DOESNT LIKE IT. So really, don't let Bella persist in that behavior to the point where Zoe responds harshly. Your old dog deserves your protection. As for Natalie, DONT let her greet dogs like that. Someday another dog will respond harshly.
|
|
|
Post by Bella's Mom on May 16, 2014 17:36:13 GMT -5
Natalie isn't allowed to be aggressive none of them are....Zoe knocked Bella over once she's too big now...usually all the kissing just turns into a butt wiggling romp around the room together. I've been in rescue 20yrs I'm not a trainer but have been around enough aggressive dogs to know the signs. You'd have to see them together..there is no posturing. My concern is with Bella and Natalie..there has been aggression between them. Any trainer will tell you its hard to be sure of anything without seeing them. I've spoken to trainers their only concern with Bella is with stranger animals and displace aggression...which actually was mentioned on here in a previous post. I appreciate the input but the trainer who gave me feedback actually spent time with her. My goal is to work with Natalie and Bella and fix Bella's displaced aggression when she sees another animals. I have seen the dominate kissing thing before but not between my dogs that doesn't even look like its pleasant for either dog. Again thanks for the feedback...but please don't assume I don't protect my dogs. I have a sign my friends get a kick out of..."Mess with my dogs I will show you a special kind of crazy that makes your nightmares look like a happy place." I've dedicated may adult life to rescue and continue to seek out information. I just take issue with strangers who INSIST they know my animals better than I do. I do know there is an aggression issue between Bella and Natalie and I'm doing what I can and researching other methods. I like to utilize message boards because I've found if I have an issue someone else usually does too.
|
|
|
Post by maryellen on May 16, 2014 18:42:23 GMT -5
Good luck with your dogs, since you know everything i wish you the best of luck. Btw- we are all also in rescue, alot of us 20 years too.... Most of us have had this breed for 20 years too..
|
|
|
Post by michele5611 on May 16, 2014 19:55:56 GMT -5
I have no doubt that you love all dogs and want the best for them. I also know you are a first time pit owner and here to educate yourself about the breed which I commend. With that being said this is your first pit bull and most of us have been pit bull owners and involved in the breed for over a decade and have extensive experience with the breed and the dog aggression/selectivity that they are prone to. Of course none of us know your dogs first hand and can only go off of the information u provide us with.
However, from what you have said I too, agree with all the sound advice that has been given. Bella has already had numerous fights one resulting in medical care necessary for one of your other dogs. Once two dogs have fought they are more likely to go at it again. For starters it is imperative that none of the dogs be left together unattended. Dog aggression can not be trained away but can be managed. I have known several pits who have gotten "along" with the housemates until they didn't ! We have members on here whose dogs have gotten into fights who are on a strict crate and rotate schedule. It is all about what is acceptable risk to you .
I would encourage you to check out the training section and I will also post some things I think might help u and the dogs as soon as I can!
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on May 16, 2014 20:13:42 GMT -5
I second what Michele wrote. Many of us here have years of experience working with dog aggression and I do think that your situation is a disaster waiting to happen. Please know that our advice is meant kindly, and our own experience in no way negates or diminishes yours. But also please know that the long-time forum members here really do know what they're talking about. Years ago they helped me deal with recognizing resource guarding and dog directed aggression in my own pit/mastiff mix. I've learned a lot since then in my own rescue work, and from what you've described I think Emily, Maryellen, and Michele are correct in their assessment of Bella, Zoe, and Natalie. It's clear that you love your dogs and watch their behavior very carefully. I just think that in this case, you are missing what their behavior is telling you. It's not the end of the world. There are just some training and logistical changes you could make to keep everyone safe and happy.
|
|
|
Post by Bella's Mom on May 17, 2014 8:04:41 GMT -5
I've seen aggressive licking...it was confusing these two dog were licking at each other but showing their front teeth and then I heard a low growl. They were separated it was obvious they were about to fight. Bella has this butt wiggle thing when kissing Zoe. When Bella was in the hospital recently for a cut that required emergency surgery. When I came in the door after leaving the vet I found Zoe sitting like Eeyore in front of where most of the blood pooled..she was just staring at it. I had her come in the living room on her bed while I cleaned it up. The rest of the night she acted like she could barely walk. When Bella came home she was right at the door loving on her before we even got in the house all the way. Suddenly Zoe was bouncing around and could walk again without trouble. Two others responded to the incident by staying either upstairs or down in the basement. But once Bella was home all went back to normal.
I also understand about bites out of nowhere...the first pit in my rescue (Bella is my first personal pit)attacked me. I was at a neighbors house came home sat in my chair..had my elbows bent to push myself back in the chair and she grabbed and punctured my bicep. They all had gathered around to greet me then next thing I know she is attached to my arm. I didn't pull but kept telling her to let go...a little shih tzu in my care kept biting at her nose...so I was telling him to go not wanting him hurt. The pit readjusted her bite and punctured me again. I heard a deep growl from the shih tzu again he grabbed her nose and that time she let go and ran across the room. I jumped up keeping the shih tzu behind me afraid he'd be next and grabbed a muzzle and muzzled her right away. While the dog warden put her in quarantine he kept saying I needed to go to the hospital. My arm was a mess but no torn flesh. Punctured muscle though with a few puncture marks. Major draining and my arm was huge and bruised. No stitches they wanted to allow it to drain. Never would have thought that particular dog would attack. I learned not to pull when bitten..the macaw came into rescue very aggressive and I couldn't pull when bitten or I'd tear flesh. That's when some folks end up with torn flesh because they try to pull away from the bite.
I'll look for your post Michelle in training later..but Bella's issues are redirected aggression when a dog walks by our fence...and Natalie. So I'm working on those things and Natalie's behavior towards the older dogs. Again no one can be sure of anything without meeting the dogs. It's like me telling someone online I've never met with a cough its TB but it turns out to be a cold. Which is why even online vets tell people to follow up with their personal vet.
Bella is my baby and I'm very aware of what the problems are..My only concern with Bella and Zoe is Zoe is 14 and lived a hard life til 12. Arrived severely emaciated but survived. As sad as Zoe was with Bella in the hospital I worry about Bella when Zoe is gone. They are bonded more to each other than the others. Friends have said the same thing.
Have a good Saturday!
|
|