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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 6, 2009 10:28:34 GMT -5
What's it to you?
Obviously in today's world, dog fighting is NOT an acceptable means of testing and preserving the breed. Since 'form follows function' that means in some ways, inevitably, in a world without dog fighting (which we all hope for), the breed will have to change some what.
How do you see it changing? Do you think gameness should be redefined? And what new methods for testing and preserving the modern APBT should be used?
(As an aside, a lot of people think dog fighting is justifiable BECAUSE it 'preserves' the APBT - I say, if the only way the breed can exist is to subject them to the horrors of dog fighting, well, maybe APBTs just shouldn't exist! Of course, WE here all know that we certainly CAN have our cake an eat it too - and the breed can absolutely exist without dog fighting.)
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 6, 2009 15:14:07 GMT -5
-Fly ball (prey drive) -Weight pull (builds strength) -Agility (combination of all the dogs skills) -Police dog (dog is allowed to be aggressive only when the need arises. satisfies its prey drive and gives it a job to do) -Guard dog (but only with very experienced and responsible owners)
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 6, 2009 15:48:21 GMT -5
Eeeek no and no to police/bite work and guard dog training. TOTALLY not what the breed is about. These are supposed to be SOFT dogs.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 6, 2009 16:26:49 GMT -5
ya maybe, i was just throwing up ideas. and i could really think of anything else where the dogs could do any real physical work full body work (besides weight pulling). which dogs, if any, do you think should be used as police/gaurd dogs?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 6, 2009 16:29:13 GMT -5
which dogs, if any, do you think should be used as police/gaurd dogs? Dogs bred to do those jobs... GSDs, Dobes, Rotts, come to mind as far as bite work goes. APBTs have been used as detector dogs by police departments, though. Their high play/prey drive makes them good at that.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 6, 2009 16:34:44 GMT -5
which dogs, if any, do you think should be used as police/gaurd dogs? Dogs bred to do those jobs... GSDs, Dobes, Rotts, come to mind as far as bite work goes. APBTs have been used as detector dogs by police departments, though. Their high play/prey drive makes them good at that. oh, when i saw they were used as police dogs i thought they were used as GSD. but then again, they would probably be as likely to lick the perpetrator in the face
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Post by emilys on Feb 6, 2009 21:57:53 GMT -5
No can do. In pit bulls, "gameness" has only one meaning. We have to give up that word as we have rightfully given up the activity. True gameness can not really be tested, because it must involve some element of risk. Hogcatching comes the closest to a test, but I'm not a big fan of using dogs to catch/torment/kill other animals. Determination, strength, drive, etc. are all important characteristics, but they are not "gameness". I think the closest we have to "gameness" in a socially acceptable way is a SAR dog like the ones that worked the 9-11 sites. Pit bulls should be great at that, as they are as drug-detection dogs
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 7, 2009 17:25:51 GMT -5
which dogs, if any, do you think should be used as police/gaurd dogs? Dogs bred to do those jobs... GSDs, Dobes, Rotts, come to mind as far as bite work goes. APBTs have been used as detector dogs by police departments, though. Their high play/prey drive makes them good at that. Actually, of all the dogs you listed only the Doberman was specifically bred for protection work. The GSD was bred, as the name implies, to be a shepherd type dog. The Rottweiler, too, was bred as a herding dog, but because of its size was used in some protection work. Maybe a better assumption would be that very few dogs are truly guard/police dogs, but many can be used as such because of their physical stature. I think that the pit bull could be, and is used as these other dogs are, purely because its physical build is very similar to them, but its temperament dictates that it shouldn't be.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 7, 2009 22:08:38 GMT -5
GSDs, Rottweilers and Dobermans were all developed with an emphasis on a protective temperament. Rottweilers were originally drovers, pushing herds of cattle over the German Alps and served as protection of the herd as well as their humans during the move. Most breeds developed hundreds of years ago which are considered guarding breeds today were not strictly developed for protection only. They were multipurpose dogs and necessary to earn their keep via herding, guarding their home and property and owners as well as other tasks such as assisting in hunting. Guard dogs differ immensely from "police" K9s. Guard dogs simply are required to be present and exhibit guarding behavior. Police work requires a heavy emphasis on controlled bite work. Airedales were used for years in K9 work and are not exactly a tenacious breed and are not a breed which is as heavy boned or of really large stature as say GSDs are. I respectfully disagree with your statement (in part): "Maybe a better assumption would be that very few dogs are truly guard/police dogs, but many can be used as such because of their physical stature." It takes much more than physical stature to be considered as a candidate for police K9 work. If that were the only requirement, we'd see many more bullmastiffs and oversized bullies doing this work. Guard dogs are only required to threaten an intruder and generally are a bad idea, period. It's only important that people would be afraid of them and human aggression is usually encouraged. Bite work and typical K9 geared protection work, such as ring sport and Schutzhund (now referred to as DVG Deutscher Verband der Gebrauchshundsportvereine) are games to the dogs. They aren't conditioned or encouraged to be aggressive, they are conditioned and rewarded for structured behaviors. Guarding breeds (those breeds which have an inherent desire to guard and protect their territories and trusted humans) range from small breeds to huge breeds. Physical build has little to do with a dogs ability to guard, anyone who has had a small dog sink their canines into their heels would attest to that.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 7, 2009 22:47:53 GMT -5
Wow I had no idea the two were so different (guarding/police work). However, (and I may not have the correct terminology to describe this) are not some guard dogs taught bite techniques similar to their police counterparts? Out of most of the things I have seen, guard dogs and K9 units, are taught to bite for the arm with the weapon, release on command and be an imposing force to either deter an attacker or corner a criminal.
As for your last paragraph, I would have to respectfully disagree with that.
"Guarding breeds (those breeds which have an inherent desire to guard and protect their territories and trusted humans) range from small breeds to huge breeds. Physical build has little to do with a dogs ability to guard, anyone who has had a small dog sink their canines into their heels would attest to that."
While I do think, for example, a chihuahua may be protective of its owners. Its ability to guard, is directly hindered by its size.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 7, 2009 23:39:42 GMT -5
Maybe it's my personal thoughts on what the term "guard" means. In my opinion, a guard dog is one which alerts to people who approach his area/home/yard and one which will aggress in an attempt to guard what he deems is his. Whether or not said dog/breed has the physical capabilities to seriously injure or de-arm an intruder is beside the fact, IMO, my point is that a "guard" dog will guard.
A "watch" dog is one who will alert bark but not necessarily aggress.
I'm not a fan of protection trained dogs being owned by private citizens and I am even less of a fan of any trainer who offers protection training to the public outside of the realm of competition for pure sport purposes. But that's an entirely different topic.
Going back to the original question posted by Mary in regards to gameness (which I realize I never threw in my .02 cents) I agree with emilys post and thoughts.
I feel gameness has a tainted connotation and directly refers to a dog with severe dog aggression for the act of dogfighting. I'd love to see the term fade. Though I have referred to dogs as "gamey" it is always in a negative context. Gameness in a dog who needs a pet home is simply a contradiction in terms.
Tenacity, gusto, drive...all are better terms to describe a dog which is enthusiastic and highly motivated to work, whatever that job may be (agility, flyball, narcotics detection, weightpull, playing fetch in the yard for hours, whatever).
And as far as we have come (in regards to gaining positive media and a growing support in light of continuous and nearly constant negative media) there simply is no room for error in regards to this breed.
Gamebred dogs, those who have a long and tight genetic history of fighting dogs have no place in this society any longer.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 8, 2009 19:15:25 GMT -5
I'm not sure how reputable the site is but here is a pretty detailed article on "gameness." They seem to think that labeling a dog as having game is alright but we need (in the modern day) to find a way to satisfy that drive in a more constructive and humane way (ie not dog fighting). The article is long so I didn't read the whole thing but it seems interesting and will try to read it when I have enough time. www.riospitbull.com/new_page_7.htm
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Post by mcgregor on Feb 9, 2009 11:32:18 GMT -5
"Eeeek no and no to police/bite work and guard dog training. TOTALLY not what the breed is about. These are supposed to be SOFT dogs. "
Pitties are naturally born lovers with a heart of gold...... that love will activate in all the puppies being born, generation after generation but those who manifest gameness in the breed or train it to become guard dogs or attack dogs , ruin the breed as a whole in the publics eye............they are not supposed to be guard dogs or trained to attack, they are working dogs and initially family dogs...............
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 9, 2009 12:34:15 GMT -5
Honestly, does a pit bull even need to be conditioned to guard?! People are terrified just at the sight of my dog and he's a smiling, tail twirling cow print sweetheart...
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 9, 2009 14:36:27 GMT -5
Honestly, does a pit bull even need to be conditioned to guard?! no that was just one idea i put down because I had seen many pit bulls trained to do so. i personally would never train a dog to guard because I wouldn't want a dog that is already strong enough to inflict serious damage, trained to do so it on an even higher level.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 9, 2009 17:29:07 GMT -5
Sorry, I left out the smilie to imply my sarcasm.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 9, 2009 20:15:56 GMT -5
Sorry, I left out the smilie to imply my sarcasm. oh
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Post by mcgregor on Feb 9, 2009 21:20:40 GMT -5
Maybe it's my personal thoughts on what the term "guard" means. In my opinion, a guard dog is one which alerts to people who approach his area/home/yard and one which will aggress in an attempt to guard what he deems is his. Whether or not said dog/breed has the physical capabilities to seriously injure or de-arm an intruder is beside the fact, IMO, my point is that a "guard" dog will guard. Little dogs do make good guard dogs ....for example the lhasa aspo guarded the royal gates of china and tibet.....I used to have one that was blind from birth and what a racket he made when anyone intruded...
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 9, 2009 21:34:11 GMT -5
i think they make better watch or alert dogs. they may warn u of an intruder or scare one, but as soon as they get in the house your going to have to protect yourself. "It was used as a watchdog in temples and monasteries, and was considered sacred, for when its master died, his soul was thought to enter the Lhasa Apso's body. " notice watchdog, they do very little to impede an enemy. www.dogbreedinfo.com/lhasaapso.htm
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 9, 2009 23:40:05 GMT -5
There have been incidences where intruders and attackers have been deterred physically by small breeds. One recent, though details escape me. Intruders typically scope out the easiest access and the least resistance and attention. Small breeds, even those which simply bark and retreat/bark and retreat call attention upon a situation, not something a burglar is willing to stick around to battle, in most instances. Obviously, someone secluded is likely not going to be physically protected by a Lhasa (my aunt owns a couple and they are bred much more as smaller specimens and housepets than originally) but I'm sure attempts to kick the beast would buy some time for the homeowner. And anyone who has seen a Parson's Russell guard his car would give second thought to breaking into it. Noisy breeds, many of whom are small not-typical-guard-dog-types are very capable at guarding their homes and property. 2am...lock is fumbled with...herd of Chihuahuas kicks into high decibel gear...burglar keeps trying...porch lights come on...911 is dialed...dogs causing a ruckus...burglar figures it's a lost cause. That's guarding in my opinion. And I'd bet that herd of Chis would not hesitate to draw blood, much faster than my snoring pit bulls wondering who had the audacity to wake them.
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