snipe
I Love RPBF!
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Post by snipe on Feb 17, 2009 18:06:22 GMT -5
no that whole caps thing was not directed at you.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 17, 2009 18:15:34 GMT -5
Just to clarify, when I type a word in caps it is for emphasis. If I were "yelling" I would type in all caps.
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snipe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 421
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Post by snipe on Feb 17, 2009 18:20:20 GMT -5
oh alright then
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Post by mcgregor on Feb 17, 2009 18:22:17 GMT -5
Quote: color=Red]Aside: I do not think McGregor meant to directly link you as the reason for dogfighting's existence. Rather it is the whole: if we don't acknowledge it, it isn't happening thing (which does in a way boost the dog fighters because it makes it seem as though their work is less horrible). However, I do not think you are doing that, but statements like: "I don't perpetuate the bait dog mythology. I don't perpetuate myth, period. It's just not my way. I work from fact. Tell me what good it does ANYone to conjure up bait dog stories? All it does is scare people and further demonize the APBT. It sets a stage of 'Pit Bull as perpetrator, and other animals as victims." Snipe [/color]
Snipe you hit the nail on the head, that is actually what I intended it to mean by helping the dogfighters ... woe is my communication sometimes....sigh
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snipe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 421
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Post by snipe on Feb 17, 2009 18:25:07 GMT -5
well since I have seen your other posts I concluded your were probably a reasonable (not a nasty) person and just figured you typed to hastily.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 18, 2009 15:31:54 GMT -5
I agree we should not use meaningless labels but if no other label exists why not? I've explained at length why I wish the whole 'bait dog phenomenon' would die, and why the whole theory behind why bait dogs are used is flawed. It serves the greater good far better to cease with the use and perpetuation of the 'bait dog' label and description and simply call all dogs involved in dog fighting or other abuse cases what they truly are: abuse victims! Tell me who is more of a victim? The supposed bait dog picked up from a fight bust yard or the Pit Bull that was being 'trained' to fight? Aren't both technically being used for dog fighting? Aren't both fight bust dogs? Don't both deserve equal chance? Why does one dog get to be slapped with the sympathetic label of 'bait dog' while the other is saddled with the heavy, 'fighting dog'? You keep talking about how we can only speculate because we don't know...well guess what, most of the times we DON'T know exactly what these dogs went through. The label 'bait dog' is mostly used for dogs that seem like losers, that seem like they were beat up, are fearful, etc. They aren't labelled bait dogs because someone saw them get tied up, heard a dog fighter call the dog 'bait' (the term itself is just SO ridiulous, and doesn't make sense), and because a dog 'learned' to fight well in the pit by beating up on it. Sometime way back when, someone put this idea out there, that puppies and kittens were stolen by dog fighters to train Pit Bulls to fight. That Pit Bulls learned how to fight by killing small and defenseless animals, and that these animals were 'bait' for the Pit Bull to get his bloodlust revved up, and that once that Pit Bull tasted blood, it was all over. Guess what happened next? People started labelling any poor, defenseless, sad, frightened, scarred up dog a 'bait dog' - without any proof of where or how the dog came to be in his current state. This mythology was spread, Pit Bulls were further demonized ("Poor bait dog used as bait for killer Pit Bulls", "Beware of Pit Bulls, since their owners steal puppies and kittens to be used to teach their Pit Bull how to fight") and the phenomenon has been self perpetuating ever since. You might think this is a petty argument, but correcting misinformation, especially that which seriously hurts the breed, is important work to me. I wish you would go back and re-read what I wrote. I did not tell him to leave, but said he SHOULD leave if he actually felt my actions in any way help dog fighters, or that I was trying to hide the truth. I'm here to tell you that in almost every case I've heard of, there was nothing BUT speculation when a dog was labelled a 'bait dog'. That label is thrown around like CRAZY in Pit Bull rescue circles. That label also carries a lot of baggage, and for that reason alone I think it should not be used. I've said that the label itself and what it implies needs to be DONE AWAY WITH. It is born from myths, and hurts the Pit Bull breed. It's not about denying that abuse occurs, it is about being correct in our judgements of dogs, behavior, and history. Snipe, I really hope you can consider what seasoned rescue and breed advocates are saying in this thread in regard to the whole bait dog issue. You don't have to agree, but I hope you can at least consider that our opinions (mine, Bama's and others) are born from experience in the field.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 18, 2009 15:52:38 GMT -5
Really? I do not think dog fighters are looking for advice from the public. They most likely learn from each other, and other "sickos" Actually, the media and what's put out there about these dogs has had an IMMENSE impact on the breed. Wannabe dog fighters and street fighters absolutely pick up ideas from a variety of sources, including what's put out there by other Pit Bull people and the media. Do I think organized, big time fight dog breeders are listening to this bait dog nonsense? Nope, because it's not standard practice in the 'professional' fight dog world because, GUESS WHAT??? It doesn't do what it is perported to do - make a dog a good fighting dog. Bait dogs supposedly incite the dog's prey drive, as you've stated, and help it be a better fighting dog. Fighting dogs, and Pit Bulls with dog-directed aggression, are not in prey drive mode *in general* when they are fighting. They are in defense mode. This doesn't reconcile with the supposed purpose of a bait dog, which is to get the dog excited about blood, rev up its prey drive, and help the dog be a better fighter. I'm not in any way implying that dog fighters know the difference between prey drive and defensive fight drive, or that they know what drives are at all (I haven't found dog fighters and the whole 'game dog' camp to be very knowledgeable about dog behavior in general). But I'm trying to explain from a scientific perspective, why bait dogs are useless. I would say some idiots think it's funny or a good time or some how productive to allow to allow a Pit Bull to maul a defensely or weaker animal, but dog fighters in general, no, they do not use 'bait dogs' as are traditionally defined.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 18, 2009 15:53:51 GMT -5
In answer to both questions, it shows denial of the fact that there are bait dogs and makes the dogfighters look innocent.... I really dont mean that you are both are helping them , your words make an impression of what it looks like and not that you really mean it. No one is denying anything, McGregor, I can assure you.
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Post by mcgregor on Feb 18, 2009 18:37:28 GMT -5
mary Quote:As I have said over and over, we need to look at the facts before we label. And my only reason for arguing the point of labeling a dog as a bait dog is to give it a correct label, or as a way to describe it at a certain time.
Iam beginning to come to a conclusion finally understanding your point, yes this is what I want for the cause.... giving them a correct lable; to initiate the process of changing terminology to benefit the breed, do you think pitbull people, those that love the breed should rally and pursue the media and other oppossers?.
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Post by tank on Feb 18, 2009 19:08:35 GMT -5
I'm really sorry. I did not mean to stir up a whole big debate. It just angers me to see people assuming things and making pit bulls out to be bad dogs (as in assuming that someone is training their pit bulls to eat/chase/whatever smaller animals just because they own pit bulls or even people doing that "most likely" owning pit bulls as a breed) in adds like this, even though the person probably had a good heart in mind to post it warning people.
I honestly didn't mean to stir things up and I apologize.
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snipe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 421
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Post by snipe on Feb 18, 2009 19:27:34 GMT -5
lol u didn't stir things up, we did. if things like this didn't happen then forums would be boring.
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snipe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 421
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Post by snipe on Feb 18, 2009 19:28:40 GMT -5
mary Quote: As I have said over and over, we need to look at the facts before we label. And my only reason for arguing the point of labeling a dog as a bait dog is to give it a correct label, or as a way to describe it at a certain time. Iam beginning to come to a conclusion finally understanding your point, yes this is what I want for the cause.... giving them a correct lable; to initiate the process of changing terminology to benefit the breed, do you think pitbull people, those that love the breed should rally and pursue the media and other oppossers?. those are mine not mary's words, unless you are talking about what came after.
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snipe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 421
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Post by snipe on Feb 19, 2009 0:36:52 GMT -5
Well, I guess I have to respond now so I don't look like a jerk or ignoramus. So here goes. Mostly why I think we are even having this conversation is because we are arguing two different points.
I think you and I both agree that some dogs found at busts are used as bait dogs. I then see no reason why you can't label them as such. As I have said, I would not do it to gain sympathy for the dog, excuse it from destructive behaviors, or to demonize the dogs that are not the way he is. This could be one explanation as to why he is shy perhaps, but should not excuse him from fearful aggression, or stop us from rehabilitating him.
Also, I am only talking in part about all the stolen little dogs, who knows where they go. I am talking, for the most part, about the pit bulls that are born into those lousy conditions, that are timid, and weak, and would serve no other purpose to a dog fighter (who's main goal is to make money from winning dogs) then to be used as bait. What other purpose could that dog serve? It can only be my assumption that these people most likely do not keep pets. Yes maybe they could be training it, but wouldn't it just be easier to kill the dog and breed a newer and better one?
"
I've said that the label itself and what it implies needs to be DONE AWAY WITH. It is born from myths, and hurts the Pit Bull breed. It's not about denying that abuse occurs, it is about being correct in our judgments of dogs, behavior, and history."
I agree that if one were using the term negatively or just tossing it around we should correct that person, but if used appropriately then there is no harm done. However, to define how this term would be used appropriately could be difficult. You say it should be done away with, but I have never associated any of the negative things that you have with the term. I have also never discussed this in real life, so you don't need to worry about me spreading it around. If it makes any difference I will be more cautious and be sure to explain myself. In addition, do not take what I say here so seriously. While I may argue my point with conviction, I sometimes argue for the sake of argument, and just to learn more about others opinions. I am THE devil's advocate. However, I do try and educate myself on the topics I am arguing, and part of that education comes from the responses I get.
I am also a conscious person, and aware of how what I say might affect others. So I am at least glad we are having this conversation here (on the internet) rather than in public, because not as many people can see it. That being said I would readily argue this point with another person face to face, and keep in mind the best interests of the breed.
At the end of the day I think I will still use the term bait dog, but only if I can say without doubt that a dog was indeed used for such a purpose. And will question anyone who labels dogs as such, as to why they did, so as to make sure their labels are accurate too. Why? Because I believe that being honest is important, and I believe it would be dishonest to tell someone that, "No that dog is just another victim of animal cruelty." When in fact the way he behaves is attributed to the fact that he was a bait dog. However, whether a bait dog, is more of a victim than a fighting dog is a completely different subject, but one that I think would be interesting to debate.
In response to the original quote from which this whole train of thought was born, I do take into consideration what you are saying. How else could we have had this long conversation unless I was reading what you wrote, analyzing or considering it, and then responding. Yet I think that is a bit to literal of a translation, you most likely want me to start seeing things your way, and this is probably because you don't want me damaging the pit bull reputation. Yet you must realize I would never intentionally do such a thing. And you also must realize that not only you, but this whole forum has had an impact on me because this summer I have convinced myself to try to train my aunts dog from a barking annoying piece of sh*t into a more civilized animal. This forum had convinced me to do so using only positive methods.
So you see what I learn here does have somewhat of an impact on my life, but the whole bait dog thing I am not quite sure whether I am going to give it up or not.
**excuse me if I mix up homophones, it is very late and i am tired (e.g. there and their)
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 19, 2009 6:51:26 GMT -5
I'm really sorry. I did not mean to stir up a whole big debate. It just angers me to see people assuming things and making pit bulls out to be bad dogs (as in assuming that someone is training their pit bulls to eat/chase/whatever smaller animals just because they own pit bulls or even people doing that "most likely" owning pit bulls as a breed) in adds like this, even though the person probably had a good heart in mind to post it warning people. I honestly didn't mean to stir things up and I apologize. Oh, don't be silly! You didn't stir anything up. Your post was completely appropriate, and I'm glad we had the opportunity to discuss the bait dog issue on the forum.
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Post by mcgregor on Feb 19, 2009 8:07:16 GMT -5
Awww Tank your post is innoccent, it was a good discussion however and we learn something from it.......
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Post by andreacassel on Feb 19, 2009 10:03:48 GMT -5
Tank - I think your post was good. It allowed a number of valid and vital points to be discussed at length and opinions and knowledge to be brought out into the open and shared.
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