|
Post by suziriot on Jun 29, 2009 12:00:58 GMT -5
A friend of my husband has a male APBT that has some very serious aggression issues and he has asked us for advice on what to do about it. The dog is almost 2 years old and was neutered at 3 months old. The friend told us that he has always been kind of "weird" and unpredictable. That alone concerned me! He said that the dog has been obedient, playful, and friendly to strange humans and dogs, but that the dog has sometimes growled when he or his wife touch him while sleeping or resting. He also is intermittently aggressive toward the other dog in the house, a neutered male lab mix: he sometimes growls when the lab mix comes near him. This has now escalated because the APBT attacked the lab mix twice in the past ten days. They say that they have never left the two dogs alone or unsupervised, but that before now they were able to play nicely with each other. The owners also said that they don't know what the trigger is, since the fights don't seem to be happening over toys or bones or food. My husband told his friend that at least for now, the dogs should not be allowed to be together AT ALL, even with supervision. I am really concerned about the safety of both the lab and the owners. He told us that in the first fight, the APBT got the lab mix by the throat and would not let go. He used a broom handle to get him off. Fortunately, the lab mix had only superficial bites on his neck. He said the second fight seemed worse though - the APBT got a good hold on the lab's nose and tore part of his nostril. In the process of trying to get the pit off of the lab, our friend got a couple puncture wounds on his hand as well. The owners talked to their vet, who wants to put the dog on Prozac. They've asked us for our advice, since we're experienced pit owners... but we don't know what to tell him. I have no experience with this kind of fighting and aggression. I also don't know if Prozac will help in this situation. We've talked about crate and rotate, supervision, etc but I think the problem may be bigger than that. I hate it, but my first thought was that this dog has a bad temperament and no behavior modification will help. I appreciate any advice that my husband and I can pass on to them. ETA: I want to clarify that while I think the dog aggression/fighting could be managed and that behavior modification might help, my real concern is about the human directed aggression (growling, stiffening) that they've told us about. I also wonder if the HA is even worse than they're letting on!
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jun 29, 2009 13:45:25 GMT -5
Of course, I have never seen the dog and only can go by what's in this post. BUT.....I don't hear anything 'weird', I don't hear 'unpredictable' (the humans are probably just misreading), and I hear 'escalation', which means the environment has been gradually reinforcing the behavior.
Some initial comments:
1) Two male dogs - an APBT that has been growling and showing signs of 'space sensitivity' when the other male dog approaches. The APBT is also 'almost 2 years old' - classic age for do-to-dog aggression issues to surface.
2) Growling at humans while sleeping or resting. Again, this is very common in dogs - many dogs just don't want to be touched while sleeping/resting. Is this something you want to see in a dog, let alone an APBT? Absolutely not. But growling is GOOD - growling is the dog's way of saying, "I'm uncomfortable about this - I don't want to bite, but I will if you push me. Please back off". This isn't 'unpredictable', this is the dog giving clear warning signs. This could also be conflict aggression, in which dog and human find themselves in conflict over things like personal space; i.e. dog doesn't want human invading his space, touching his possessions, etc at specific times. A good way to guage help figure out if this is just typical dog-human head-butting, is to put the dog on a Nothing In Life is Free (NILIF) protocol ASAP. The behavior should deminish if not outright disappear in a week or less. (Will be longer if the dog has had a long history of reinforcement for growling - ie. dog growls, human backs off).
3) I don't think Prozac is going to solve anything. First of all, drugs don't eliminate aggression; in certain instances, they can help manage the behavior while a behavior mod program is put into place. Second, absolutely in no way shape or form, should they be getting behavioral advice from their regurlar vet, let alone accepting rx for behavior modification drugs. If this is the route they need to go (time will tell), they need to work with a board certified vet behaviorist. Getting behavior mod drugs from your vet is like getting help for a mental disorder from your general practitioner. It's unwise - you should go to a specialist.
Is your friend willing to see a trainer/behaviorist? I think they need to work with someone who can help them through this. Where are they located? I might be able to recommend someone. They also, most likely, will have to go through very very careful management for the course of the lives of these dogs. The APBT *will* end up seriously injuring or even killing the Lab if they don't address this appropriately.
Ok, all for now.....
|
|
|
Post by maryellen on Jun 29, 2009 14:09:04 GMT -5
sounds to me the apbt is maturing, and a crate/rotate is now necessary since DA is genetic in this breed and you cant train it out. as far as the growling when on the bed, same thing, dog is maturing and being a snot nose and thinks he can guard the bed/couch and needs a huge dose of NILIF immediately.
and i dont see any unpredictability, i see a dog who has probably given a ton of warnings that the owners ignored or missed..
|
|
|
Post by tank on Jun 29, 2009 16:01:18 GMT -5
Has the dog actually been to the vet recently or did they just talk to their vet about it? Sure the dog is maturing, but if they think it is all of a sudden maybe the dog is sick and easily irritated.
|
|
|
Post by maryellen on Jun 29, 2009 16:30:00 GMT -5
its probably not all of a sudden, it has probably been happening over time but they didnt see the signals...
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jun 29, 2009 21:59:19 GMT -5
First of all, thank you so much to all of you for these very helpful responses! Has the dog actually been to the vet recently or did they just talk to their vet about it? Sure the dog is maturing, but if they think it is all of a sudden maybe the dog is sick and easily irritated. I didn't even think to ask if the dog had any health issues. I don't know if they took him to the vet, but I think I have to agree with maryellen... I doubt this is sudden and I think the owners have been ignoring the signals, hoping it would get better. Since they told me they've always thought he's been (as they say) "unpredictable" they obviously felt something was wrong. Mary H. - Thank you SO much for confirming for me that Prozac probably won't help. I was very skeptical when they said this was their vet's recommendation. I think your recommendation to consult a behaviorist is the best advice I can give them. They live about 30 minutes from us, in suburban Chicago. I think you've already said that you don't know anyone firsthand around this area, but I will send them the websites that you gave me before. I also found a trainer close to them that a local bully rescue uses. Her website is - if you have a moment, maybe you could check it out and let me know if you think she'd be good? I also have a question myself, stemming from this discussion. I understand that growling is "good" because it's a warning from the dog. But my thought when I heard all of this from this owner was that the growling at humans combined with the dog aggression is a bad, bad thing. When is it just growling that can be managed and when is it problematic human aggression? I guess I'm fortunate not to have dealt with these issues myself yet.
|
|
|
Post by tank on Jun 29, 2009 22:14:24 GMT -5
I was just saying that it is always good to rule out something medical first. Whether or not the owners admit it was sudden is irrelevant. I wasn't saying it ISN'T a behavior problem, but with anything like this medical reasons should be ruled out first and all it takes is a simple exam and blood test from a vet which they should be going to yearly anyway. To not do that is irresponsible.
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jun 30, 2009 0:00:30 GMT -5
I was just saying that it is always good to rule out something medical first. Whether or not the owners admit it was sudden is irrelevant. I wasn't saying it ISN'T a behavior problem, but with anything like this medical reasons should be ruled out first and all it takes is a simple exam and blood test from a vet which they should be going to yearly anyway. To not do that is irresponsible. I totally agree with you about getting him checked out by the vet... I was just saying that I don't know if they actually took the dog with them or if they just talked to him. And I don't know anything about the dog's medical history. I certainly hope that the vet did a health evaluation before prescribing any medication! I'll tell my husband to be sure to ask his friend about that when they talk tomorrow.
|
|
|
Post by mcgregor on Jun 30, 2009 7:08:52 GMT -5
Growling as a warning is a good theory , look at the ''rattlesnake'',it gives warning before it strikes, hence the hissssssing...it means dont butt in, stay away and if you dont!... the snake attacks.
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jun 30, 2009 7:22:06 GMT -5
Mary H. - Thank you SO much for confirming for me that Prozac probably won't help. I was very skeptical when they said this was their vet's recommendation. I think your recommendation to consult a behaviorist is the best advice I can give them. They live about 30 minutes from us, in suburban Chicago. I think you've already said that you don't know anyone firsthand around this area, but I will send them the websites that you gave me before. I also found a trainer close to them that a local bully rescue uses. Her website is www.dogsense4u.com - if you have a moment, maybe you could check it out and let me know if you think she'd be good? I don't know of anyone personally, but I think I had recommended you check out some trainers from the Karen Pryor clicker school site, if I remember correctly (sorry, hard to keep track sometimes! ;D ) I viewed the site you sent and I would NOT recommend it. Maybe the trainer is great, but I noticed that she used some wording that tends to be used by force-based trainers - she uses the 'leadership' and 'each dog is unique so I'll use whatever tool is necessary' line. She also is a member of IACP which is mostly force-based, shock, or 'balanced' trainers. I also thought it was odd that she said she was not going to list her accomplishments. Aside from all that, this person seems to deal with basic training and common dog behavior issues. I don't think she sounds qualified to be dealing with a serious aggression issue. Personally, I'd look for a CAAB, or someone with a master or PhD in behavioral sciences, or a board cert vet behaviorist. I'm not sure where she is in relation to your friend, but contact Pam Reid who surely could at the least recommend someone in the area (I'd hope!): Pamela J. Reid, Ph.D., CAAB ASPCA Animal Behavior Center 1717 S Philo Rd, Ste 36 Urbana IL 61876 Tel - 217-337-9734 Fax - 217-337-0599 E-mail - pamr@aspca.org Here is a listing of certified vet behaviorists: dacvb.org/about-us/diplomates/diplomate-directory/The aggression being shown to the other dog, and the growling at the humans, isn't necessarily and is probably not related (barring some general medical condition, which it does not sound like this dog has - this is such typical stuff). The way I look at it is, the dog is almost two and has never bit anyoe. If he was 'unpredictable' and 'human aggressive' he would have bitten someone long before now. But he hasn't. He growls in very specific circumstances. That doesn't mean he won't bite a human - and that doesn't mean the behavior shouldn't be taken seriously. But given the overall general picture, the growling is the least of my worries. The aggression between the two dogs sounds very serious and is potentially life-threatening to the Lab. Too many Pit Bull people are alarmist when it comes to any sort of aggressive behavior directed at people. Their immediate response is "The dog is genetically inferior and is dangerous!!! Euthanize immediately!!" I have seen people demand others kill their dogs based on an internet posting. That's pretty terrible, if you ask me. Pit Bulls are dogs, and the behavior you've described sounds like a dog who has been giving warnings, has probably not gotten the direction he needs, is most likely confused about his environment and how to coexist in a more peaceful manner. I really think your friends need to have someone come into their home and evaluate the situation - someone who understands learning and aggression. My recommendations at this point - above getting a qualified professional in - is to put the dog on NILIF asap, and monitor the two dogs very carefully (leashes and crates, ONLY, no free time together) and of course from here on out, keep the two dogs seperated when someone isn't there to really watch them.
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Jun 30, 2009 9:22:08 GMT -5
just a comment on "unpredictable". I believe that dogs are RARELY unpredictable. For example, dogs don't "suddenly turn on their owners". Unless the dog is truly abnormal, it has given many many warnings prior to feeling forced to escalate (or in the case of obnoxious pushy ill-trained dogs, has learned that it can get its own way through growling/snapping)
The problem is that people don't understand dog language, and that's probably the case with your friends. So, even if there are physical problems that they need address with a vet, some lessons (for them as much as the dog) with a behaviorist/excellent trainer will help a lot. Or even if they get one of the books, like Aloff's, with photos and explanations of dog "language"
And they should do what MaryH recommends!
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jun 30, 2009 11:43:45 GMT -5
The problem is that people don't understand dog language, and that's probably the case with your friends. So, even if there are physical problems that they need address with a vet, some lessons (for them as much as the dog) with a behaviorist/excellent trainer will help a lot. Or even if they get one of the books, like Aloff's, with photos and explanations of dog "language" And they should do what MaryH recommends! I think you're absolutely right! I'm VERY lucky that through the years, I've never had a dog that growled at me so I don't have any experience with it. I know that my husband's friend has had dogs, but never an APBT. So I think Mary H. is right that they reacted with alarm, thinking "oh no, our pit bull is growling at us - it's unpredictable" and they don't realize that this is manageable. Heck, since I've never dealt with it I would have been a little freaked out by it too! That's why I had my own questions about this issue. This has been a GREAT learning experience for me and I really appreciate everyone's input! Mary H. - Thank you so much! I will pass that information on to them. Regarding that trainer I asked you to check out... I'm disappointed that the APBT rescue near them would work with her if she's using methods like that. The first thing my husband told his friend when he asked for advice was that they immediately should start doing a more strict version of what we do - the crate and rotate. And he told him that their APBT and Lab mix absolutely cannot be together, even supervised. I think that they should probably get a break stick too, for any emergencies. Our dogs can be together with supervision and we always have a break stick handy although we've never had to use it, thank goodness! I don't know if they do NILF so I will recommend some resources on that. My husband did tell them that they could borrow our copy of Pat Miller's The Power of Positive Dog Training. But I agree that they need to see a good behaviorist/trainer asap! I'm just really glad that both he and his wife seem willing to do what is needed and that their first reaction was NOT to just put the dog down.
|
|
|
Post by suziriot on Jul 6, 2009 21:05:04 GMT -5
Just wanted to update... they've made an appointment with a behaviorist (my husband forgot to ask who, but we did give them the websites that Mary H. suggested) for an evaluation. They decided NOT to do the Prozac that the their vet had suggested. They said that doing NILF and crate and rotate is working really well, and everybody seems to have adjusted pretty easily. They also said that the APBT has stopped his guarding behavior, has not growled at them once while sleeping or being handled, and seems a lot more relaxed in general now. So hopefully this will be a happy ending for all! Thanks again for helping me give them the right advice.
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Jul 6, 2009 23:23:35 GMT -5
great to hear! It really does often seem that once a dog understands he's not the boss, he can relax about a lot of things. Most dogs don't seem to want to be "leaders" and often they prefer to let the human do it (as long as the rules are clear and fair). Not always true, of course! But I don't think pit bulls for the most part are natural challengers of humans (unlike Malinois for example)
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Jul 7, 2009 7:55:30 GMT -5
Oh, AWESOME update! I'm so glad! Kudos to your friends!
|
|