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Post by emilys on Mar 28, 2008 9:57:14 GMT -5
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Post by AmyJo27 on Apr 1, 2008 17:48:46 GMT -5
I thought Cesar Millan was bad???
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Post by valliesong on Apr 1, 2008 18:57:06 GMT -5
How do you keep a pack of dogs "submissive"? Hmmmm...
Also, you can't choose a dog as a pup and expect it to have a certain temperament when it is older. What if this pup matures to be high energy and drive-y?
Oh, that's right. He can get any dog to be "submissive."
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 2, 2008 7:43:16 GMT -5
Oh, that's right. He can get any dog to be "submissive." Yeah, all you have to do is alpha-roll it and pin it to the ground several dozen times. Ta-DAH! "Calm and submissive" (aka shut down, intimidated, in a state of learned-helplessness).
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Post by AmyJo27 on Apr 2, 2008 17:16:05 GMT -5
The 2 dogs in the pics are cute though!!!
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 3, 2008 7:12:48 GMT -5
The 2 dogs in the pics are cute though!!! Yes they are ;D
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 16, 2008 15:45:48 GMT -5
cute tho
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jenn
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by jenn on Apr 30, 2008 0:50:16 GMT -5
I always though ceaser was awesome. I've never seen anyone handle such aggressive dogs in a way that doesn't require physical abuse such as shock collars and pepper sprays.
Most of the dogs he's called to help are dogs that are in "the red zone" and are very close to being put down.
Isn't it better for the dog to be taught what's acceptable than for it to be killed? Or for a family to have to give up a pet that their kids are attatched to? What do you guys see that I'm missing?
Why is Ceaser bad?
I'm not trying to cause an uproar, I'm honestly curious about this as I trained my cat and Tyler using some methods that I've seen Ceasar do. The results are long lasting and the animals aren't depressed, or harmed in any way. Plus my 8 year old sister actually taught tyler to stay out of the trash with the "shh" sound that she learned from Ceaser, so this is training that is so easy to do that a kid can help.
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Post by andone707 on Apr 30, 2008 0:56:14 GMT -5
guess i havent been part of the pet owner forums long enough, since i have only heard good things about cesar... instead of someone pointing out that he is a bad person, how about some reasons and examples behind such statement? that way those whom have no clue can get an education behind such believe...
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 30, 2008 7:18:49 GMT -5
Jenn and Andone, if you check out the sticky thread on the Training& Behavior Board you'll find plenty of reasons why dog professionals find Cesar's methods to be outdated and harmful.
This is not about bashing Cesar, it's merely about education.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 30, 2008 11:18:49 GMT -5
again, the thing I like about cesar is his desire to work with the animal's nature. However, I think he assumes a little too much about dog psychology, including the assumption that they need to be "dominated" rather than working on a partnership of love and trust. I think our dogs are easily as smart as young children (horses are said to have the level of a human 3 year old), and should be treated as such.
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Post by AmyJo27 on Apr 30, 2008 11:27:42 GMT -5
Also with the cat thing, that sound might sound similar to a hiss to them! If my cat is doing something bad and you make a hissing sound he take off running! I strongly dont agree with Cesars methods, clicker training is so much better than punishment training! Clicker training is postive, Cesars methods are so "aggressive" When i used to use Cesars methods my dogs became REALLY submissive even to the point that they wouldnt even look at me and when i would pet them they would start urinating! Now they seem happy and normal but I feel bed for my oldest dog, Molly because that really effected her, she still wont look at me. As you can tell in the photo section, she wont look at the camera! It breaks my heart!
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 30, 2008 11:38:57 GMT -5
you know, it's not like the dogs don't KNOW we're in charge, being that we feed them and everything, plus we can pick things up with our hands. we don't need to bully them too!
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Post by OurPack on May 4, 2008 14:49:27 GMT -5
Hopefully balancing things out here. There are times I've had to use outdated techniques when NOTHING else would work and ALL other things have been tried. MAYBE this is where Cesar is. In fact I don't remember where I read it but he mentioned in an interview or something that by the time he gets the dogs all else has failed. Hmm, not sure about that. Where I REALLY disagree as a trainer on snapping chains (and I disagree with it anyway in general) is to teach simple behaviors like sit, or staying calm etc. It seems like you're using a sledge hammer to kill a flea and you're breaking the trust of your dog. Aversives need to be used VERY sparingly if at all and only once or twice....this also means they're NOT working if you are using aversives routinely. Doing this routinely is just not necessary and ruins the dog's bonding process with the human. For instance to get a leash/dog reactive dog to be calm around other dogs on leash can be done by giving him cheese when he's calm around other dogs. Of course timing is important as well as other factors for effectiveness etc which is why it should be done in class or with a professional, but it can be done without snapping a chain while you're building a bond and establishing positive leadership with your dog. As I said rarely I've used techniques I wouldn't normally use if a dog was going to be euth'd. I've saved many lives doing that. BUT I go right back to positive reinforcement techniques. And of course that's what we'd want our dogs to live with....Pit Bulls especially. Sound Pit Bulls are so biddable and willing to please humans...I think they make it easy in many ways. Marthina McClay, CPDT www.ourpack,org
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maryc
Full Fledged Poster
Posts: 206
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Post by maryc on May 6, 2008 11:28:22 GMT -5
blockquote]you know, it's not like the dogs don't KNOW we're in charge, being that we feed them and everything, plus we can pick things up with our hands. we don't need to bully them too![/blockquote]
I think this is part of the problem. Often the dog does NOT know who is in charge. I see it all the time at the shelter when I show a dog to a potential adopter, and at class where clearly the dog is in charge and has been reinforced for that behavior by their owner/handler.
I really have mixed feelings about him. The one thing that I do like about him is he really does show that this breed we love can be a wonderful companion and I can't fault him for that.
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Post by bullymommy25 on May 6, 2008 18:21:13 GMT -5
okay I'll rephrase cuz you're right about that maryc! I guess what I mean to say is a trained, happy dog with a stable owner should be able to follow direction and respect rules, and have an understanding of the relationship!
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Post by coolhandjean on Oct 4, 2008 14:46:35 GMT -5
Cesar has some positives. He, for the most part, makes our breed look good, but also, hands out some poor info. i.e. dog aggression as a trained trait instead of a genetic trait.
I agree the pup picture with Daddy is cute.
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