Ex-fighting dog trouble

[ankhesenamun]

Hey everyone! As I said in my intro, I am the guardian of 4 pit bulls. Two are breeder blues, two are rescues. One of the rescues I, er, liberated from the yard of a known dog-fighter in Newark NJ. She came right to me and my husband, arms and throat ripped open and oozing. We got her home, gave care and the amoxicillin that I had acquired for a wisdom tooth gone wrong, and crated her. We began SLOW intros to the rest (over 6 months, lots of walking) and once she realized she didn't have to fight for her grub, she fell head over heels in love with us. She is my most obedient dog by far, and I think the smartest. We've had her for 3 years now.

Trouble is, my husband flipped his jeep and broke his thigh, knee, and foot on the left side (historically inclined readers now understand my screen name) , and then contracted septicemia and nearly died in Overlook Hospital. He lived, God be praised, but we had to downsize BIG time. We've since, in the past 2 years, had 4 fights with this dog and the others. I have since increased her walks, I now keep them seperated, and my heart is broken. I can find ZERO resources and I am terrified to reach out to people in any way but anonymously, because I know most folks would want my poor rescue dead.

She is all black but for a white cross on her chest, of a line in the Brick City (NewarK) called "Midnight". We named her Amani, Arabic for "peace". My family adores her. She is human submissive to the nth degree, to the point where in fight 3 she accidentally touched my husband's arm when he was breaking with her teeth and she abandoned the fight and cowered for hours. She has this guilty look that she does now, eyes half closed, a grin on her face, slithering towards us on her belly when she gets aggressive. I know how to break fights, and I am not scared a lick. I have, thank God, never had a bad injury except needing to take her to a vet when my blue and her tangled last November and her face swelled up. Again, antibiotics in cream cheese did the trick.

The sad part is, before I seperated her from the group, she really LIKED having dog buddies. They would lie together, play together, even eat together no problem, even after we moved. But 4 fights later, she just has to stay away from the girls. Curiously, we have not had a problem with the male (who outweighs her by a LOT and has a jaw that can fit over her head. She snuggles him, but even here now I only allow the most basic of greetings, and no playing. She CANNOT play with dogs outside of her pack, and I'm okay with that. My neighborhood dog loving friends know the clear the park when Amani comes. Some pro-fighting jerks call her "sexy" and I am ever vigilant, but no one will break in here unless they have a death wish (and that's BEFORE the dogs get released).

I will defend this dog-and all my dogs-with my life. I will NOT rehome her. I will NOT let anyone take her, legally or illegally. It would mean her death, I am quite sure. I am working night and day on getting a country home, where I can build a true kennel and give my pups all the land they need to roam. I will not let them go in despair that I will achieve my goal. I make sure to give all the dogs love and time, but I must keep her seperated now.

Whew. Now to my question.

I can find no resources on the web, either in advice columns or for trainers who A) would work with her at all or B) would cut me a break on the fee. I gotta do this one myself. I have no fear, I am a very dominant woman, and tenacious as any one of my pits. I am even proud, in a macabre way, of how I reacted during the fights. Calm, cool, growl my "Leave it!" command, a leash around the hind end, a splash of water to the face, and seperate the dogs when they are confused by the water. I kept her in the crate for a while, and then I let her out and love her again like nothing happened at all. But she's lost her place in the "pack". And she knows it.

I know a lot of it is the loss of my acreage. I would NEVER have taken all these dogs without land, but karma is crazy, and it seems I must fight my way back into land ownership. I also know-and others in my 'hood have told me-that even if I have to let go of 3 dogs, Amani is the one I have to hold, because no one else will since she was a fighter.

I realize she may never be trustworthy again. I also realize that miracles are the result of hard work, knowledge, and God's grace. The first I can supply, the second I hope to find here, and the third I must have faith in.

Has anyone ever rehabbed a fighter? I call them 'gladiators' even though I LOATHE dog fighters, because the spirit of these dogs is incredible. Right now, Amani is laying beside me, waiting for me to look at her so she can bathe me with kisses. She is THE most grateful dog I have ever known, so this tells me she is happier here than with those fktards who abused her so cruelly. She doesn't WANT to fight for her life every day. The reason why I come here now is because the last fight, when I realized we needed help, was friday, after months on months of playing with and cuddling with my other pits (who will respond like any game dog when bitten and didn't take her crap for a moment). It really broke my heart. It was over a tug toy. The others, I could not for the life of me name the cause. Chillin to fighting in 1 second flat, but like I said, I jumped in immediatly and no true harm was done but for some little cuts. NOT like how I found her. But I don't doubt her for a minute, nor any of my bulls. If I did not react how I did, it could have been bad.

So you all know, there is no human aggression in my house. Like I said, Amani "belly slithers" after a fight, cuz she knows I HATE it. The only thing is, once a nasty girl in my area tried to scream at me when I had her for a walk, and she growled and put herself infront of me. It was proper behavior, IMHO. She is less friendly with men (and not to be racial, but sometimes black men make her nervous... those who fought her were black men too, so maybe that is why. But she is cool with black male friends when she meets them, and we have had black men over for dinner and she has kissed them).

Please help Amani. I need resources for this. I am terrified that if I reach out in any other than a relatively anonymous way, the state will take her and kill her. She is not a bad dog at all. I trust her with my life 100%. Four fights in three years is pretty darn good for how she seems to have been raised. My own resources now are scarce. I need real help.

[Dave]

First, welcome to the forum. You'll get lots of input here, plenty of experience to go around.

I've read your post three times. My first thought is that you're way to anthropomorphic about your dog. Break it down to the dog's level, and you'll see that your dog is just like very many pit bulls in that she can't be trusted not to start something. Be it stink eye, the wrong touch, possessiveness, resource guarding, it doesn't matter. Same sex aggression is also very common. So she can't be with the others, that means crate and rotate. I do it with my two girls, they can't be together without some barrier between them. No biggie. And it's not specifically a problem with her nature OR nurture. It's a breed thing, and some dogs are afflicted with dog aggression worse than others, some not at all.

Do you live in NJ? I'm curious why you think the state would take her away? BSL is unconstitutional here, and a legal challenge will beat it. She's not bitten anyone, so no one will deem her dangerous. Just keep her leashed in public, on a strong six foot lead, and there shouldn't be any legal problem for you.

Accept what she is, don't set her up to fail, keep her separated, and everyone will be happy. It's actually pretty simple when you break it down.

Wanted to add... you cannot train away dog aggression. A trainer or behaviorist can help you understand and manage, but it will never go away.

[michele5611]

I agree with Dave. There are many members on here who own multiple pit bulls and crate and rotate.

Dog aggression cannot be trained out but can be managed responsibly. I own a dog aggressive pit bull. What that means for me is she is never ever left unsupervised or off leash around other dogs- period. It is clear that you love all your dogs and surely don't want to put any of them at risk so with that being said like Dave the easiest and safest thing to do is crate and rotate.

[ankhesenamun]

Crate and rotate. So there is no way to get this out of her? I'm really not one of these saps who gives human traits to my dogs... she does seem to enjoy being around the other dogs... that is, until she doesn't. But i mean, she cries to be with them, and after the fight, she will do this thing where she "touches noses" with the dog she fought, wagging her tail.

Where I live they demand (but cops don't enforce too much) insanity to walk a pit bull: STEEL collar AND chain, steel muzzle that goes over the whole face like a cage. Fines for anyone who breeds or 'harbors' pit bulls in city limits. Dog fighting is a MAJOR problem in my city. I am scared for any official to know Amani's past. I am still not yet comfortable to give my city name up, or my real name.

Has no program been devised to resocialize fighting dogs yet? As many dogs as are probably fought in my city alone, this is a shame. But as far as my situation.... I don't want to accept that she will never be able to enjoy a run with another dog, or even just to lay with me and one of my other females on the couch. She seems to want to... REALLY not just me projecting it onto her. If she didn't give a crap, I wouldn't.

I appreciate every single suggestion I get, so thank you both very much.

[ankhesenamun]

Dave.... when I called my city hall about this they claimed it was a "state wide" law. Of course, my city is corrupt as sin, so I can't trust them. But I have very little trust in state officials.

[adoptapitbull]

Michele and Dave are right on this one. You can't train out what's been bred into Pit Bulls. If you could, we'd have a whole new world on our hands.

Unfortunately there is not much you can do besides crate and rotate. We have 5 dogs who at one time all got along. I'm talking snuggling, lying on top of one another, doing zoomies galore...best buddy stuff. But a few years and a some fights later, we have a very strict C&R for some, and a modified C&R (only together during certain times) for others.

It absolutely sucks when you're snuggling with one dog and another is crying in their crate to go outside. I hate having to switch them around. But you know what, I'd hate seeing any of them end up in a shelter in a garbage bag or mistreated on the end of a chain, so I just have to manage.

You just have to make the choice...is she going to live with you in a crate and rotate situation, or is she going to live with someone else in an unknown situation?

If you need tips on managing C&R, don't be afraid to ask. We can all share our tips on making harmony in a multi-dog household.

[catstina]

It really has very little to do with her past as a fighting dog. Most of the Pit Bulls on this forum that are Dog Aggressive (DA) or Dog Selective (DS) were never fought or bred for fighting. Because of this breed's past, some are going to be DA/DS, no matter how well you socialize or train them. It can't be trained away, only managed. That's just how it is. In an other thread you said that you crate your dogs whenever children come over, if you are willing to do that for your dogs safety, you should also be willing to crate and rotate your dogs.

[Dave]

Apr 23, 2012 23:19:59 GMT -5 ankhesenamun said:

Dave.... when I called my city hall about this they claimed it was a "state wide" law. Of course, my city is corrupt as sin, so I can't trust them. But I have very little trust in state officials.

What state do you live in? Do not accept what they tell you, look up the statutes. It's pretty easy. Maybe the police don't enforce because it's not law.

Crate and rotate. So there is no way to get this out of her? I'm really not one of these saps who gives human traits to my dogs... she does seem to enjoy being around the other dogs... that is, until she doesn't. But i mean, she cries to be with them, and after the fight, she will do this thing where she "touches noses" with the dog she fought, wagging her tail.

If you could see how my two girls react to each other you'd think they were best buddies; they wag, lick each other, play bow and show absolutely no overt aggression. The fact is each of them would like nothing more than to continue the last fight, both dogs thought it was great fun. In less than one minute, there was $2000 damages at the e-vet. No, my girls will never be close enough to grab hold again.

Where I live they demand (but cops don't enforce too much) insanity to walk a pit bull: STEEL collar AND chain, steel muzzle that goes over the whole face like a cage. Fines for anyone who breeds or 'harbors' pit bulls in city limits. Dog fighting is a MAJOR problem in my city. I am scared for any official to know Amani's past. I am still not yet comfortable to give my city name up, or my real name.

Dogfighting is rampant in the US, and not just an urban thing. Next town over from me an organized dogfight was broken up last year in a nice suburban neighborhood home in the basement. As far as your city officials go, she was a stray you picked up off the street.

Has no program been devised to resocialize fighting dogs yet? As many dogs as are probably fought in my city alone, this is a shame. But as far as my situation.... I don't want to accept that she will never be able to enjoy a run with another dog, or even just to lay with me and one of my other females on the couch. She seems to want to... REALLY not just me projecting it onto her. If she didn't give a crap, I wouldn't.

I know of no particular program or protocol for rehabbing and socializing. Each dog is an individual, and different methods may have different results. Don't expect to train her to accept the company of other dogs reliably. Use your head when socializing. First and formost, she's your companion, and I'm sure she won't suffer for not cuddling with the other dogs. I'm sure she wants to, but the dogs have a way of lying to you.

Like catstina wrote, it has little to do with her being fought in the past. My Sedona didn't have a mark on her when she came to me. But I know she does like the fight.

[michele5611]

It is obvious that your dogs are an important part of your family and with that being said it is all about what is acceptable risk to you. Maybe you think the dogs could or would co-exist on the couch for a short time but maybe they can’t. At the end of the day your dogs have already had multiple fights so ask yourself it is really worth the risk.

Being a responsible dog parent is keeping our dogs best interest at heart at all times even if we feel bad. So your dog can’t play with the other dogs. In the grand scheme of things no big deal- she is no worse off for it. Think of how much better off she is since you rescued her. She is loved and cared for. Being a proactive pit bull owner is of utmost importance.

[emilys]

i just want to reiterate the advice to get a copy of the law they claim exists. Call your city hall, ask about ordinances. Get a copy of all the laws relating to dogs. It is certainly possibly the cops/ACO are lying. But if they aren't, you do have to be careful about observing them. If, as others have said, you live in NJ where any breed specific legislation (including collar/kenneling requirements) are against state law, then you have a strong case. BUT be aware that many places have laws that are "illegal".. and sadly the only way to get it changed is to take personal action. You can address the city council and show them why they are wrong. End of the day, people sometimes have to sue their own town to get rid of local laws that go against state law.

And I absolutely agree with the others that you have to face the reality of the dogs you have. Crate/rotate. Don't take chances.

[michele5611]

I am not sure where you are in Jersey. We have quite a few members from NJ on here myself included. If you feel comfortable sending me a pm with regards to where you live I might be able to look into this so called "law" in your town.

Like Emily said look into the ordinances. If you do not feel comfortable calling them and asking them about ordinances then I suggest you look at your town website. They often list the ordinances online.

[suziriot]

Others have already done an excellent job of explaining why crate and rotate is the best way of dealing with this situation, but I'll add my "ditto" to the rest. Several of us here on the forum have had quite a lot of experience dealing with dog aggression, with our own dogs and as rescuers. The rescue I'm part of has been working with fight bust dogs for well over a decade now, and one of my own personal dogs came from a bust. I agree 100% with Catstina that your boy being an ex-fighter is irrelevant to his DA. My worst DA dog was properly socialized and trained from the age of 8 weeks. He was best buds with the other dogs in the house until about his first birthday. Then he started picking fights with the intent to kill. This doesn't make him a bad dog - he's a sweetheart, and very gentle with humans. So we've had him on crate/rotate for several years. He will lick the other dogs through the gate, give them play bows when they are in a crate, but we know from experience (he got loose once since he went on C/R) that he will try to kill the other dogs if he can get at them.

I know it can seem quite daunting at first, but please trust us that it's not a bad thing at all. Once you get a routine in place, it becomes a normal part of life. And everybody is much safer and happier!

[maryellen]

the only towns in nj that have semi bsl is englewood, atlantic city, and 2 others, and i dont know of any of them that require steel chains/muzzles.

[michele5611]

Apr 24, 2012 15:48:33 GMT -5 maryellen said:

the only towns in nj that have semi bsl is englewood, atlantic city, and 2 others, and i dont know of any of them that require steel chains/muzzles.

I certainly do not know of any that require steel chains either.

[perfectpit]

I live the C&R lifestyle due to issues of DA. The one with DA is 8y/o and lived with 2 other dogs previously with no issues. When we got Beastley things were bliss for the first 6mths then all things changed. My Mastiff blindsided Beastley and it was a very expensive experience and one I never want to repeat. (unfortunately it happened a 2nd time because my husband thought they got over their tiff.) He learned the hard way. My vet had to stitch and staple them both up on those occasions and now every time we go into his office the first thing that comes out of his mouth is...You are still keeping the boys separate, right? Absolutely you haven't seen us in here for any repairs have you? Beastley just had surgery on his knee due to the last incident because when the fight broke out my husband grabbed the first thing he could and that was Beastley's legs and my Mastiff had his throat. He said the look in my Mastiff's eyes were like "I have intentions of killing this dog." He dragged both Beastley and my husband through the the middle of the yard. Thank goodness the neighbors helped break it up or one of them would of been dead. Don't get me wrong both dogs know commands and are aware of the house rules but when DA/DS comes into play all commands go out the window. We C&R with baby gates that have doorways we can click open to walk through which restricts their movements but allows them to see everything going on. Each one gets special time with us and they are safe and content. There will be a time where you won't be able to stop a fight without someone getting seriously injured. It is just too risky for us and why put them in a position to fail. I muzzle our dogs while in public, it is the law, however it is my personal preference because I don't want anyone saying your dog bit......I don't look at a muzzle as a bad thing, I look at it as a positive thing as a responsible owner and protection from those idiots in public who are looking to cause issues.

[michele5611]

I also wanted to add owning a dog sensitive/ dog aggressive pit bull is not a poor reflection of any of us as owners. It does not mean we did not love our dogs enough, or did not train them enough, or socialize them enough. So many owners these days feel like if they can't take their dog to the dog park or their dog does not have any dog friends that some how they failed their dog. Being aware and not sugar coating things makes for a far more responsible owner in my opinion.

[johnr]

Breed Specific Law is illegal in NJ, but some municipalities pass it anyway, figuring they will intimidate citizens into rolling over in court. Don't. If you need a lawyer, I know a topnotch anti-BSL lawyer in NJ who takes on cases like this pro-bono. She's beaten the BSLers in multiple jurisdictions in NJ and NY. If you want her contact info, PM me.

[johnr]

Apr 24, 2012 6:03:09 GMT -5 catstina said:

It really has very little to do with her past as a fighting dog. Most of the Pit Bulls on this forum that are Dog Aggressive (DA) or Dog Selective (DS) were never fought or bred for fighting. Because of this breed's past, some are going to be DA/DS, no matter how well you socialize or train them. It can't be trained away, only managed. That's just how it is. In an other thread you said that you crate your dogs whenever children come over, if you are willing to do that for your dogs safety, you should also be willing to crate and rotate your dogs.

Important point, and very true! I fostered an ex-fighter who was easy to handle around other dogs and a young female Pit with no apparent fighting background who was absolutely impossible.

[adoptapitbull]

Apr 24, 2012 18:33:08 GMT -5 michele5611 said:

I also wanted to add owning a dog sensitive/ dog aggressive pit bull is not a poor reflection of any of us as owners. It does not mean we did not love our dogs enough, or did not train them enough, or socialize them enough. So many owners these days feel like if they can't take their dog to the dog park or their dog does not have any dog friends that some how they failed their dog. Being aware and not sugar coating things makes for a far more responsible owner in my opinion.

This x100!!

I remember coming on here years ago and talking about fights, feeling like my dogs were "bad" and I wasn't a good enough dog mom to stop them from fighting. It was during the hype of Cesar Milan, who made all fighting dogs sit down and have tea together it seemed. Regardless I didn't like his training, but I honestly thought rehabbing DA dogs was possible. It's not. You can't train out the fight from a Pit Bull. It's not the dog being "bad". It's the dog being a Pit Bull.