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Post by emilys on Apr 11, 2013 11:11:07 GMT -5
I do welcome you and love your cute dog! If you don't already know, I have very strong opinions and am quick to share them. Possibly what I am about to post will offend you. I am on Mary (RealPitBull)'s side in this. IRT to DNA, the PBLN radio show has constantly touted it, interviewing Dr Izirrary numerous times and making outlandish claims (which he himself has not made) about his status and expertise and what the research actually shows. So the radio show at least certainly DOES tout DNA as evidence that "there's no such thing as breed". The whole thing is absurd to me, since all dog breeds of today are relatively modern and all are composed of multiple other breeds. I don't believe the science is really advanced enough to identify "breeds" as opposed to general "types" As long as people take seriously the notion that some shelter dog has a substantial portion of some extremely rare breed, I'm NOT going to take these things seriously. And as long as I hear things like "see DNA proves that head shape doesn't determine behavior!" (which is what I've read/heard on PBLN), I'm going to have problems with taking it seriously They also tout as "science" studies that show most of the people surveyed can't identify a dog by breed. This "science" only proves that most of the people surveyed can't identify a dog by breed. The attempt to expand this as some kind of "proof" that therefore it's impossible to identify dogs by breed, or that breeds don't exist or that breeds don't have distinctive physical and behavioral traits is just bunk. When AFF/NCRC does a study testing the ability of breeders, breed judges and other experts to identify breeds, I will find them more honest. In fact (as a side note) I'm baffled that the rescue community isn't seeking out alliances with breed clubs to help identify breeds in shelters. Well, I'm not really baffled because much of the rescue movement is all about breeder hate. PBLN interviewers, and most of their guests, are fans of the red herring that because not every dog of a breed displays all the breed characteristics (i.e. "my Lab hates water") or that some dogs will display the characteristics of another breed ("look at my APBT herd those sheep!") therefore breed is irrelevant or even false. This is dangerous ignorance. Especially IRT a breed like the APBT which is so misunderstood and is NOT for everyone. I find the interviewers on the radio show to be very disruptive, unprofessional and sometimes downright ignorant. Frankly I stopped listening because the constant  about hot tubs is not just foolish, but borders on sexual harassment. I will not be offended by any disagreement you have with me on this or anything else. Just don't call me a "hater" or "elitist". |
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Apr 11, 2013 11:21:10 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Apr 11, 2013 11:21:10 GMT -5
They also tout as "science" studies that show most of the people surveyed can't identify a dog by breed. This "science" only proves that most of the people surveyed can't identify a dog by breed. The attempt to expand this as some kind of "proof" that therefore it's impossible to identify dogs by breed, or that breeds don't exist or that breeds don't have distinctive physical and behavioral traits is just bunk. When AFF/NCRC does a study testing the ability of breeders, breed judges and other experts to identify breeds, I will find them more honest. In fact (as a side note) I'm baffled that the rescue community isn't seeking out alliances with breed clubs to help identify breeds in shelters. Well, I'm not really baffled because much of the rescue movement is all about breeder hate. And don't forget, some of these people MAY be identifying a dog's breed correctly but the DNA results prove them "wrong". |
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perseus
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Post by perseus on Apr 11, 2013 12:17:21 GMT -5
hey welcome aboard! That is a very fine looking pup and great name. FWIW I find your wanting to be here and your attitude encouraging. There needs to be more of this imo.  I also tend to look at things from a lot of different angles and am leery of zealotry and folks thinking they have the one and only truth. That being said I find the core values and stance of RPB; to be one of the most comprehensive, real world - based upon decades of experience positions, most articulate -taking into account so many facets of PB advocacy that are not always intuitively obvious, positions out there, and...I agree with that position. I don't always agree with everything discussed here and to be honest at times have found fixation on certain views to be myopic (more so when i first came aboard). That being said, over time and listening to the discourse of those with a lot of time and experience put in, I have come to understand and even change my position on said views. Doesn't mean I will go to the mat as quick as some here over them but I get it.  I hope you like it here and stick around and hopefully some bridge building gets done. There's good people here who have an immense love and loyalty for our breed and oh god forbid! they love other animals also. |
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Apr 11, 2013 12:19:02 GMT -5
Post by catstina on Apr 11, 2013 12:19:02 GMT -5
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ames
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Apr 11, 2013 21:13:05 GMT -5
Post by ames on Apr 11, 2013 21:13:05 GMT -5
wow thanks for the great feedback everyone. I am still getting a hold of multi-quoting and I have failed, so bare with me I’ll try it again next time. I will say the Mystery Dog of the week has been very controversial and that is not our intent. The intent is to get people to join us in the chat room and listen to our show. We also want people to realize that visually IDing a dog is not possible 100%. But we also don’t think DNA is 100% reliable yet either. So then you have to say if we do not agree with DNA being possible what’s the point? It’s just fun. Seriously. A few people have mentioned they do not “get” our point either. I will work on making that more clear and adding a disclaimer. Trying to help listeners go into chat and win a free book. No mission other than what happens every day to dogs by people on the street and in authority figures and isn’t reliable. We have all types of guests on. Some I agree with some I do not. Our network is made up of varying opinions and I think that's what makes it well rounded, but I really appreciate your opinions, so thank you for sharing them. As far as correctly IDing a dog but the DNA is wrong, no one can ever tell one way or the other. And when I mean bloodlines KNOWN I don't mean registered with a registry. There are so many crap registries out there just for a buck, I mean there is a MERLE APBT REGISTRY!!?? WTH! Paper hanging is very real, I know this. That is why I say the only way to know is if you actually trust your breeder or you yourself is the one doing the breeding. Other than that you can only look and make an educated guess. Emilys, no offense at all, I appreciate it I really do. “I'm baffled that the rescue community isn't seeking out alliances with breed clubs to help identify breeds in shelters. Well, I'm not really baffled because much of the rescue movement is all about breeder hate.” I agree with you on this, it’s very sad how so many rescues are only into spay and neuter (which I am on the fence about due to recent studies about doing it so early) and against anyone breeding instead of understanding there are responsible breeders who may be able to help if we all ban together. “This is dangerous ignorance. Especially IRT a breed like the APBT which is so misunderstood and is NOT for everyone.” I don’t think a St. Bernard or a Yorkie is the right dog for everyone either. I think its case by case, dog by dog, so I agree not everyone should own a pit bull. I also don’t feel breed is really relevant. I firmly believe one way or another most dogs can be trained to ignore unwanted behaviors, no matter the breed. For instance, my dog really doesn’t like other dogs but I manage him so he knows that’s not acceptable behavior. Do I trust if I leave the room he will still be the same, helllll no! lol Some of our guests have touted “there is no such thing as breed” but that is their opinion just like it is yours that there is such a thing as breeds. We like to have all points of view discussed, not just ones that agree with what one of us feels. I do not subscribe to that BTW. What I do subscribe to is a dog is a dog, unless it was bred for a purpose. And I am not meaning because the dog is so great I want more like him or the dog is a cool color. I mean health testing done after a dog has proven they are worthy of being bred for working or show purposes. As far an Animal Farm/NCRC they did do a study, they worked with UF on this: sheltermedicine.vetmed.ufl.edu/library/research-studies/current-studies/dog-breeds/dna-results/ From their page about the study: More than 5,000 dog experts, including breeders, trainers, groomers, veterinarians, shelter staff, rescuers, and others completed the survey. You are invited to view pictures of the 100 dogs in our study, their actual DNA breed results, and what our survey responders guessed their breeds were. My question someone posted was “DNA proves that head shape doesn't determine behavior!" (which is what I've read/heard on PBLN), I'm going to have problems with taking it seriously" Do you feel that head shape determines behavior? Or is your problem that it was said DNA proves it’s not a pit bull so how can we say it doesn't determine behavior? Appearance and behavioral traits are not the same thing at all. So breeding for a big head and dog aggression for example, are breeding for 2 different things. I think I am starting to understand how some of you feel about on visual ID. And I can see where you are coming from when I didn't really before, I appreciate you explaining. I guess where I get hung up is one person’s expert to someone else may not qualify, so why bother doing it at all. I don’t think rescues need to be pure bred only, that’s your choice, but I would prefer pure bred rescues only claim the dog is a pure bred if they know the bloodlines. I have been around many mutts of course, but I mostly know ABDA APBT and ABKC American Bully’s, one friend has a UKC AmStaff, and I have tons of Labs, Chis and Golden’s owned by family and friends that are papered, but who knows if they are hung lol My ADBA and UKC dogs I am around are the Colby bloodline since they are from his yard, it’s really close to where I live and his family are still members of the NEAPBT club. I am a member of the club, so that is what I am most familiar with. I have a lot of friends in the show circuit, but I personally have never lived with a dog that wasn’t a rescue as I have a LOT of friends in rescue as well, so I teeter between the 2 worlds defending the rescues to breeders and defending the breeders to rescues, as I am neither lol. I apologize for my novel and will try to keep it shorter next time. Really enjoying the conversation and want to make sure I answered what people brought up. (if I missed something please repost. Looking forward, perseus, to chatting with ‘the good people here who have an immense love and loyalty for our breed and oh god forbid! they love other animals also.” Cause above all I am sure we share a common goal. I have a 15 year old kitty, her name is Hazel   |
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Post by emilys on Apr 11, 2013 21:23:51 GMT -5
... My question someone posted was “DNA proves that head shape doesn't determine behavior!" (which is what I've read/heard on PBLN), I'm going to have problems with taking it seriously" Do you feel that head shape determines behavior? Or is your problem that it was said DNA proves it’s not a pit bull so how can we say it doesn't determine behavior? Appearance and behavioral traits are not the same thing at all. So breeding for a big head and dog aggression for example, are breeding for 2 different things. ... The PBLNers have used the statement/ DNA "finding" that "head shape doesn't determine behavior" as a club to use against the existence of breeds. "Head shape determines behavior" is something that has been said by breed advocates...... NEVER. So this exemplifies my problem with the "no such thing" people. They make statements that are totally red herrings, things that have NEVER been said by breed advocates to allegedly debunk breeds and try to make breed advocates look stupid. It's dishonest at its core. To answer your question: IMO opinion 1) DNA proves NOTHING about breeds and 2) our state of knowledge is very very poor on using DNA to identify behavior, as in "we've found the aggression gene, yay!" so IMO, DNA proves nothing either about a "pit bull" (which of course is not a genetically identifiable anything, unless you're talking about the APBT which the databases are lacking in) or about "aggression"... whatever that is. No one knows how to define "aggression" so it is impossible to ever identify a "gene" (or multiple genes) that cause it. |
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pitbullmamaliz
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Apr 11, 2013 21:25:14 GMT -5
Post by pitbullmamaliz on Apr 11, 2013 21:25:14 GMT -5
Ames, I have to say kudos to you for not getting upset by this conversation. |
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Post by emilys on Apr 11, 2013 21:25:37 GMT -5
and p.s. I have come to have ZERO interest in the "identify the dog by one photo" game.
Dog breeds are a component of many aspects of appearance including structure and movement. One photo indicates nothing.
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 11, 2013 22:15:25 GMT -5
Ames I really appreciate you being here and taking the time to explain your beliefs and experiences. Although we might not all agree on everything we all have some common ground.
Further to your above post RPB and many others here have been tarred and feathered by other Pit advocates for daring saying we don't believe Pit Bulls are for everyone. Like you said and we agree no one breed is for everyone. Apparently if you are of that belief with regards to Pit Bulls you are contributing to BSL.
While I do believe that every dog is an individual I do believe that breed plays a part to a certain extent. If there were no specific breed traits we would just have one generic dog.
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Apr 12, 2013 12:41:10 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Apr 12, 2013 12:41:10 GMT -5
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ames
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Apr 12, 2013 16:11:52 GMT -5
Post by ames on Apr 12, 2013 16:11:52 GMT -5
... My question someone posted was “DNA proves that head shape doesn't determine behavior!" (which is what I've read/heard on PBLN), I'm going to have problems with taking it seriously" Do you feel that head shape determines behavior? Or is your problem that it was said DNA proves it’s not a pit bull so how can we say it doesn't determine behavior? Appearance and behavioral traits are not the same thing at all. So breeding for a big head and dog aggression for example, are breeding for 2 different things. ... The PBLNers have used the statement/ DNA "finding" that "head shape doesn't determine behavior" as a club to use against the existence of breeds. "Head shape determines behavior" is something that has been said by breed advocates...... NEVER. So this exemplifies my problem with the "no such thing" people. They make statements that are totally red herrings, things that have NEVER been said by breed advocates to allegedly debunk breeds and try to make breed advocates look stupid. It's dishonest at its core. To answer your question: IMO opinion 1) DNA proves NOTHING about breeds and 2) our state of knowledge is very very poor on using DNA to identify behavior, as in "we've found the aggression gene, yay!" so IMO, DNA proves nothing either about a "pit bull" (which of course is not a genetically identifiable anything, unless you're talking about the APBT which the databases are lacking in) or about "aggression"... whatever that is. No one knows how to define "aggression" so it is impossible to ever identify a "gene" (or multiple genes) that cause it. Ahhh OK where we are coming from is the short coat square head definition that is widely used in regards to BSL, not saying advocates use this to signify PIT BULL, but head shape is something that DOES lead to what a breed of dog might be. Using that broad definition accepted legally by many area that have BSL to signify an expected behavior is what I have a problem with. ANY dog can be potentially lethal given the wrong circumstances, the same way some would look at a dog and guess its breed is done to condemn it to death or restrictions. Accepting DNA or visual ID as fact means to me people are OK lumping a behavior the same as they are about guessing an appearance. What is funny to be are breed standards for dogs are always accompanied by the disclaimer not to be used for breed identification, yet so many feel it’s acceptable to use them to identify breed. It makes a difference when the laws quote ADBA , UKC and AKC standards on dogs, and the organizations themselves say they don’t want that done. All good about the photo game, looks like we lost you as a listener when we were in transition from hosts. Maybe one day you might give us another shot. No worries, I look forward to meeting you on here regardless. Ames, I have to say kudos to you for not getting upset by this conversation. HAHA thanks, but no worries. I try not to get upset talking dogs, not worth it and then I can’t learn anything new! Hate missing stuff lol Ames I really appreciate you being here and taking the time to explain your beliefs and experiences. Although we might not all agree on everything we all have some common ground. Further to your above post RPB and many others here have been tarred and feathered by other Pit advocates for daring saying we don't believe Pit Bulls are for everyone. Like you said and we agree no one breed is for everyone. Apparently if you are of that belief with regards to Pit Bulls you are contributing to BSL. While I do believe that every dog is an individual I do believe that breed plays a part to a certain extent. If there were no specific breed traits we would just have one generic dog. I hear you and I have been flogged on some boards for saying it as well. I think the damaging part is not the phrase itself, it’s when people don’t listen to the MESSAGE behind the phrase. In itself it DOES sound harsh, if not everyone should own one, they shouldn’t be owned by anyone? Well that can be said of anything I guess. I have changed it up to say not every dog is perfect for every human. That way I don’t give the wrong initial impression, yet if they are interested I can elaborate on what I mean. I am not saying you can’t assume things about a dog, I think the problem I have is making assumptions before you know the individuals dogs behavior and lumping it in as one based off a look alone. It’s not always black and white, for any breed. awesome! I would hate to piss everyone off from the gate, lol. Sounds great I will check it out. I really want to start a thread about my training experiences and just haven’t had time to do it yet! lol |
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Post by emilys on Apr 12, 2013 19:39:17 GMT -5
... Ahhh OK where we are coming from is the short coat square head definition that is widely used in regards to BSL, not saying advocates use this to signify PIT BULL, but head shape is something that DOES lead to what a breed of dog might be. Using that broad definition accepted legally by many area that have BSL to signify an expected behavior is what I have a problem with. ANY dog can be potentially lethal given the wrong circumstances, the same way some would look at a dog and guess its breed is done to condemn it to death or restrictions. ... I am very much opposed to accepting the definitions used by our ENEMIES to define our dogs. Besides which there are probably 50 breeds of dog with a short coat and a square head, most completely unrelated in any meaningful way to the APBT (all the mastiff related breeds for example). Who could possible take seriously the notion that head shape defines ANY THNG related to behavior, let alone something as ill-defined as "aggression"? Well I suppose there are some sort of examples: dogs with long thin snouts tend to be herding breeds.... dogs with snub noses tend to be toy breeds... |
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ames
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Apr 12, 2013 20:03:54 GMT -5
Post by ames on Apr 12, 2013 20:03:54 GMT -5
I'm with ya, sadly the "enemy" isn't on board just yet. If you live or CAN'T live somewhere you don't really have a choice to accept or not. Your dog could be killed or locked up if you ignore what their laws are, which is reality. I wonder if those 50 breeds with a short coat have all been called a pit bull incorrectly by the media or society cause they are going off a conformation standard now knowledge of bloodlines.
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 12, 2013 21:35:34 GMT -5
Because so many pit bull advocates are pushing and or subscribing to there is no such thing as a pit bull or using pit bull type dogs it has allowed the BSL proponents to just cast a wider net .
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ames
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Apr 12, 2013 21:59:23 GMT -5
Post by ames on Apr 12, 2013 21:59:23 GMT -5
Because so many pit bull advocates are pushing and or subscribing to there is no such thing as a pit bull or using pit bull type dogs it has allowed the BSL proponents to just cast a wider net . Very possible, but I really think the media and Animal Control officers have done it more than the advocates. Particularly since most advocates only agree that they want to help dogs, but the actual WAYS they "help" vary. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 13, 2013 16:34:16 GMT -5
Ahhh OK where we are coming from is the short coat square head definition that is widely used in regards to BSL, not saying advocates use this to signify PIT BULL, but head shape is something that DOES lead to what a breed of dog might be. Herein lies the disconnect: A lot of folks are looking specifically at the language of BSL and then taking those words and trying to use them against the BSLers (this applies to other confusions as well, more later on that). They aren't coming from the OTHER end of things, the breed-specific, breed-based side (the side I'm on, where we acknowledge standards and things like that). So when BSL says something like, "APBTs, ASTs, SBTs and any dog that looks like those breeds...." and then goes on to list some physical attributes, in order to snare as many dogs as possible, the Anti-BSLers come in and say, "You cannot say just because a dog has a blocky head, that means it is a) a Pit Bull and b) going to be aggressive." (Which is true, you can't say that.) If you (hypothetical "you") know and understand what breed standards are for - a blueprint of sorts for breeders to strive to create the perfect breed specimen - you'll know too that the average person isn't going to be able to take such and such a standard (let's say it doesn't specify which breed the standard is describing) and go into a shelter and ID a bunch of dogs based off that standard. It's stupid to think you can. Of course BSLers use standards against us. But it doesn't mean purebred dog folks and people like me are the ones who are in the wrong or that standards are "bad". The disclaimer on the standards is specifically to help circumvent this problem. Same thing like the breed DNA companies don't include the APBT in their databases because they worry that the results will be used to implement broader BSL. This is why it kills me that so many 'pit bull advocates' are gung-ho about using these DNA tests to their advantage, and putting stock in them, while it could very easily be a science turned against us. No one is thinking about the big picture. I see so much denial of breed, no fighting FOR the breed, everyone is just focusing on the BSL side, looking at things in such a way that may only help the immediate future but screw us over later. I like that. |
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Apr 13, 2013 16:40:29 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Apr 13, 2013 16:40:29 GMT -5
I am very much opposed to accepting the definitions used by our ENEMIES to define our dogs. YES!!! Ditto times 1 million. |
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 13, 2013 16:54:49 GMT -5
I am very much opposed to accepting the definitions used by our ENEMIES to define our dogs. YES!!! Ditto times 1 million. Agree. I am also against accepting definitions used by out allies if I believe they are wrong or detrimental. |
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Apr 13, 2013 17:04:18 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Apr 13, 2013 17:04:18 GMT -5
Ok guys, can we start moving over to the Let's Talk thread? You can bring quotes from this thread on over if you want. This thread is just getting way off topic but there are some great things being said, so I'd like to keep the discussion going.
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I look forward to learning much here