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Post by megan on May 2, 2013 12:59:06 GMT -5
I have spent the last 2 years focused on Roxy and her reactivity and fearful behavior. Despite her issues being very real and fairly obvious, she is what I call an "easy study." There was an obvious point where she was close to reacting. I could tell when we were getting too lose to another dog, we could view triggers from far away and d/cc and play LAT, I found her threshold and sort of danced all around it to work with her. So the work hasn't been easy and its taken a long time to get where we are, but her progress is undeniable.
Now... There is Buster. His reactivity has sort of snuck up on us. He's not a Pit Bull or any mix thereof. Vizsla mix is our best guess. And he is highly dog reactive. And he has zero impulse control when we are walking on leash and he sees something he wants (greet people, charge at another dog, chase cats, etc.). I call him 0-60 because there isn't an increase in his reaction as we get closer to something. There isn't an obvious threshold line. He's either acting a fool, or he's not. He's Cujo, or he's Scooby Doo. And when he sees other dogs, its Cujo. Unless we are inside the house and using a baby gate, then he's nervous, but able to work through it. When we bring home foster dogs, he doesn't meet them until they are in the house and we have done some drive-boy's at the baby gate.
We have done tons of clicker work, but shaping is very hard for him. We have worked on impulse control activities in the house and yard, we use treats and toys for rewards because he is a fetch fiend. Chasing down a ball is probably his favorite activity. But the ball and food mean absolutely nothing to him when he's over threshold. And I can't just back away and get him under threshold, and I can't start further away and keep him under threshold.... Because he goes from 0-60 the moment he sees another dog.
One of the things I did with Roxy on walks was traditional d/cc for anything dog-related, including just hearing dogs because that would trigger Roxy's fear also. But, on a walk, Buster can hear other dogs barking in their houses and yards, and he might stop for a moment to listen, but then he's on his merry way again. I considered BAT exercises but he can't even see a dog for a microsecond without blowing up. I can't feed him through things, I can't use the open bar technique, I can't use his ball or another toy.... So I'm starting to feel like my options for where to start with him are non-existent.
But I KNOW there has to be other ideas out there.... Anyone have any?
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Post by RealPitBull on May 2, 2013 13:02:14 GMT -5
Megan, are you familiar with BAT?
There is ALWAYS a threshold. You just have to find it, and start working in the teeny tinest increments.
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Post by RealPitBull on May 2, 2013 13:08:24 GMT -5
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pitbullmamaliz
I Love RPBF!
Liz & Inara CGC, TD, TT, B.A., M.A., Ph.D., CW-SR
Posts: 360
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on May 2, 2013 13:41:01 GMT -5
Oooh! I have one of those! And I have to say that BAT has made more difference for her in a year (and honestly, not very many set-ups) than years of counter-conditioning and desensitization has done. Do I trust her around strange dogs yet? Not a chance - she's the type to lure them in with flirty behavior and then when they're within reach she goes. But her body language is much calmer overall and there are several dogs now that she can have a brief butt or nose sniff with. She has even begun BATting her self - at the window she'll start to get aroused and then turn and come to me instead. Very cool to see. She can even be used as a decoy dog for other reactive dogs sometimes, which almost makes me cry. All that to say that yes, BAT is the way to go, 100%.
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Post by RealPitBull on May 2, 2013 13:44:57 GMT -5
Thanks for that feedback, Liz. I think BAT is fantastic. It's predecessor CAT is wonderful, and it's creator Kellie Snider really understands what drives aggression/reactivity (hint, it's not dominance or "anger", it's fear/anxiety). But Grisha really took the concept and ran with it. I think BAT is a little more feasible to work with in the everyday scenarios we live through with our dogs.
Read the website, get the book! Buster sounds like a prime candidate!
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Post by megan on May 2, 2013 14:38:10 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I will have to do some more reading about BAT to understand it better. I've incorporated some of it into Roxy's training (I mean, the bare minimums, basically I starting paying more attention and realized she was giving calming signals and I rewarded those by leaving the scary situation). I know that's not the whole protocol, but it's already done wonders with Roxy.
And I tried to do some BAT exercises with Buster but I haven't had success yet because he blows up the second he sees another dog. I have given greater and greater distance... but as soon as he sees something in the distance, he's off his rocker.
And Mary, it's funny you mention dominance and anger.... I've had people tell me Buster "has dominance issues" which always makes me laugh. He's a 3.5 legged dog who was found as a stray about 20lbs underweight and scarring that indicates he's probably been in a few fights (we presume over food or other resources). He had serious food guarding behavior when he came to us, also.... Chances are his behavior is more along the lines of "I'm going to get you before you get me," or "GET AWAY! I'm so scary!" and meanwhile, he's petrified.
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Post by RealPitBull on May 2, 2013 14:49:30 GMT -5
Hmm yeah, it's really difficult when the dog has almost no threshold and very easy to accidentially reinforce the reactivity. Can you enlist a helper dog/handler? I suggest setting up a straight line of sight between the dog and Buster (might have to be a football field's length or more at first). And walk maybe half steps (stop and wait in between each step to see what happens) at a time towards the other dog until you get the tiniest notice (ear flick, tongue, head turn, ANYthing even if you think he didn't see the other dog), and click/treat/retreat at that point.
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Post by megan on May 2, 2013 14:53:00 GMT -5
Gotcha.... I'm thinking maybe we need to work in a new, but very calm, environment coupled with the added distance. Our road itself is a trigger (for both dogs) since there are so many dogs on it, and so many of them are off-leash with idiot owners.
I wonder... could I use Roxy as the decoy dog if we're doing it forever away anyway? I mean, he knows her, but if we're going to wind up being 150 feet away from each other, there's a good chance he won't know it's her anyway.
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Post by RealPitBull on May 2, 2013 14:56:38 GMT -5
Sure you could use Roxy at first. I mean, for some super reactive dogs, people will used stuffed animals. Just make sure someone else arrives seperately with Roxy. You want the situation to be as real as possible. You don't want "false negatives" because he's not dumb and recognizes the other dog as being Roxy
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Post by megan on May 2, 2013 15:18:16 GMT -5
That makes sense!
Although, if he does recognize the other dog as Roxy, I could do BAT for frustrated greeters with him since he's super frustrated greeting as well... might be a win-win. BAT for strange dogs from far away, and BAT for frustrated greeters when we get closer and he realizes it's her.
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pitbullmamaliz
I Love RPBF!
Liz & Inara CGC, TD, TT, B.A., M.A., Ph.D., CW-SR
Posts: 360
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on May 2, 2013 15:23:44 GMT -5
I've also done BAT by just jingling a collar with tags as that sound can be a big part of what sends them over the threshold. I second the stuffed dog suggestion - we use them a lot with clients. Also try having the decoy dog lying down, or eating treats that are strewn on the ground so that his head is down, making him look like he's doing a calming signal to Buster. If you have an open football field or something very large and very flat you can get some really great distance that way.
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Post by maryellen on May 2, 2013 15:54:31 GMT -5
i can send you the book "help for your fearful dog" by nicole wilde and you can borrow it maybe that will help too?
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Post by megan on May 2, 2013 21:56:14 GMT -5
i can send you the book "help for your fearful dog" by nicole wilde and you can borrow it maybe that will help too? I actually have it, lol.... That was one of the first things I got when we brought Roxy home. Maybe I need to take another look at it! Thanks though
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Post by maryellen on May 3, 2013 4:58:42 GMT -5
i also have Click to Calm too if you want to borrow that one
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Post by maryellen on May 3, 2013 11:51:45 GMT -5
oh and i have Control Unleashed too
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Post by megan on May 3, 2013 16:06:26 GMT -5
I have Click to Calm, but haven't read Control Unleashed. I've heard good things about it in agility circles and dealing with self-control at the start line and things like that, but I never thought about it in terms of a reactive dog, even though I'm sure the principles apply. Hmmmm.
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Post by maryellen on May 3, 2013 16:16:01 GMT -5
i can mail it to you if you want when i go back to work monday, or we can meet halfway sometime this weekend to give it to you. you never know it might have something in there that might work. especially since it deals with impulse control, maybe some stuff in it might work or get you started. let me know if you want to borrow it for as long as you need it
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Post by megan on May 4, 2013 17:19:09 GMT -5
Thanks, ME! I appreciate offer I think I'm going to start with the Click to Calm and some BAT exercises to see where that gets us. If that doesn't do what I need or I think I need more, I will definitely take you up on that offer!
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