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Post by RealPitBull on May 3, 2013 9:46:56 GMT -5
Thoughts, feedback, comments, on the content of this presentation? www.animalsheltering.org/training-events/expo/expo-2013-schedule/expo-schedule-saturday.htmlHSUS Expo 2013: “Moving Beyond Breed” Mark Kumpf (kumpfm@mcohio.org); Stephanie Shain (sshain@washhumane.org ); Kim Wolf (kwolf1@ufl.edu) Dogs of Past ? Regional populations led to development of working dogs/functions ? Industrial revolution and decrease in working dogs; emergence of breeds/companion (“pet”) dogs ? Formation of breed clubs and breed standards; social status and breed identities Dogs of Present ? Original functions of dogs irrelevant to most modern companion dogs ? Modern purebred dog standards based mostly on appearance/physical conformation, not behavior ? Purebred dog registration on decline in recent decades; mixed-breed dogs the majority, especially in shelters State of Genetic Research ? Extraordinary diversity in appearance caused by small genetic differences ? More genetic diversity within breeds than between ? Appearance not predictive of behavior ? Conventional breed groupings contradicted by new research State of Breed-Specific Legislation & Policies ? Breed-Specific Legislation (BSL) on decline ? Breed-based shelter policies on decline, but still exist; motivated by protection of dogs, not public ? False perceptions shape policies and marketing Case Studies: Breed-Based Policies ? Washington Humane Society – changing shelter policies, working with staff/board ? Ohio – repeal of state-wide BSL and ? Pennsylvania SPCA and Philadelphia Animal Care & Control – increasing adoptions through breed-neutral policies Adoption Counseling and Support ? Dogs have the same basic needs, regardless of appearance or breed ? Assessing old habits and beliefs ? Best practices of behavior and enrichment programs ? Conveying useful information to adopters; asking the right questions Media ? Case study: working with the media in Ohio Breed-Based Marketing ? Lessons learned from other fields (marketing, consumer behavior, psychology) ? Breed-based promotions and policies can work against goal ? Reinforcing artificial categories versus leading progress ? Targeting adopters versus targeting dogs by “breeds” Community Outreach ? Building safe and compassionate communities based on bonds, not breeds ? Shifting priorities to meet demands: “Pets for Life” ** PANEL DISCUSSION AND QUESTIONS **
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Post by RealPitBull on May 3, 2013 10:08:24 GMT -5
I think a lot of this sounds really good, I mean like what's beneficial to dogs in general. I just don't have TOO much to say because I don't have much material to comment on. It's just headings. I'd love to have been able to sit in on this My main comment concerns a need to dismiss breed, though - and it's not a comment, it's actually a question: WHY? Instead of focusing on breed, the focus of which is to DIMISS it, why not just NOT focus on it and talk about dogs in general and how best to help them in a shelter environment? I'm not sure why talking about breed club politics (i.e. how breed groups are formed), for instance, is relevent? I love purebred dogs and I WANT purebred dogs to flourish, so I am sensitive to any material that tries to deminish their worth or what they are, or misleading statements (i.e. standards only care about appearance, when the focus of talks like this are often about a breed of dog that was breed for most of its 200 year existence as a PERFORMANCE animal). Just throwin' some stuff out there.
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Post by emilys on May 3, 2013 14:42:35 GMT -5
I think a lot of this sounds really good, I mean like what's beneficial to dogs in general. I just don't have TOO much to say because I don't have much material to comment on. It's just headings. I'd love to have been able to sit in on this My main comment concerns a need to dismiss breed, though - and it's not a comment, it's actually a question: WHY? Instead of focusing on breed, the focus of which is to DIMISS it, why not just NOT focus on it and talk about dogs in general and how best to help them in a shelter environment? I'm not sure why talking about breed club politics (i.e. how breed groups are formed), for instance, is relevent? I love purebred dogs and I WANT purebred dogs to flourish, so I am sensitive to any material that tries to deminish their worth or what they are, or misleading statements (i.e. standards only care about appearance, when the focus of talks like this are often about a breed of dog that was breed for most of its 200 year existence as a PERFORMANCE animal). Just throwin' some stuff out there. What she said. There's an agenda to denigrate/dismiss the reality of purebred dogs that is deeply ingrained in the shelter/animal "rights" movement. "Don' buy while shelter dogs die". blah blah. HSUS is of course one of the leaders in the AR movement (though they do little to support local shelters). And the recent BBC program and yesterday's NBC attack on the AKC are part of this agenda It's not that purebred dogs have no problems or that AKC doesn't contribute to some of those problems. But it doesn't help dogs in the long run to continue to drive wedges between those who love "all" dogs and those who love a particular breed of dog. Denigrating/denying/minimizing (or whatever you want to call it) purebred dogs and their traits does exactly that. Pretending that what you write DOESNT denigrate/deny/minimize purebred dogs does more than that.
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Post by Kim Wolf on May 3, 2013 17:04:26 GMT -5
I think a lot of this sounds really good, I mean like what's beneficial to dogs in general. I just don't have TOO much to say because I don't have much material to comment on. It's just headings. I'd love to have been able to sit in on this My main comment concerns a need to dismiss breed, though - and it's not a comment, it's actually a question: WHY? Instead of focusing on breed, the focus of which is to DIMISS it, why not just NOT focus on it and talk about dogs in general and how best to help them in a shelter environment? I'm not sure why talking about breed club politics (i.e. how breed groups are formed), for instance, is relevent? I love purebred dogs and I WANT purebred dogs to flourish, so I am sensitive to any material that tries to deminish their worth or what they are, or misleading statements (i.e. standards only care about appearance, when the focus of talks like this are often about a breed of dog that was breed for most of its 200 year existence as a PERFORMANCE animal). Just throwin' some stuff out there. What she said. There's an agenda to denigrate/dismiss the reality of purebred dogs that is deeply ingrained in the shelter/animal "rights" movement. "Don' buy while shelter dogs die". blah blah. HSUS is of course one of the leaders in the AR movement (though they do little to support local shelters). And the recent BBC program and yesterday's NBC attack on the AKC are part of this agenda It's not that purebred dogs have no problems or that AKC doesn't contribute to some of those problems. But it doesn't help dogs in the long run to continue to drive wedges between those who love "all" dogs and those who love a particular breed of dog. Denigrating/denying/minimizing (or whatever you want to call it) purebred dogs and their traits does exactly that. Pretending that what you write DOESNT denigrate/deny/minimize purebred dogs does more than that. Did you even read what I wrote? I feel like you're on auto-pilot. You say the same thing every time. If you have something constructive to add, I'm all ears -- and that's why I asked for input. Simply rehashing the same old stuff about how I'm supposedly denying breeds is a waste of your time and mine. If you have a suggestion, I'm open to hearing it.
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Post by emilys on May 3, 2013 19:14:37 GMT -5
What she said. There's an agenda to denigrate/dismiss the reality of purebred dogs that is deeply ingrained in the shelter/animal "rights" movement. "Don' buy while shelter dogs die". blah blah. HSUS is of course one of the leaders in the AR movement (though they do little to support local shelters). And the recent BBC program and yesterday's NBC attack on the AKC are part of this agenda It's not that purebred dogs have no problems or that AKC doesn't contribute to some of those problems. But it doesn't help dogs in the long run to continue to drive wedges between those who love "all" dogs and those who love a particular breed of dog. Denigrating/denying/minimizing (or whatever you want to call it) purebred dogs and their traits does exactly that. Pretending that what you write DOESNT denigrate/deny/minimize purebred dogs does more than that. Did you even read what I wrote? I feel like you're on auto-pilot. You say the same thing every time. If you have something constructive to add, I'm all ears -- and that's why I asked for input. Simply rehashing the same old stuff about how I'm supposedly denying breeds is a waste of your time and mine. If you have a suggestion, I'm open to hearing it. Oddly, it's not all about you. But do you actually READ what you write? If you really don't see the multiple points (in combination with everything else you post) which reflect an anti-purebred mindset, then you need to step back and reflect. And reflect why you choose to attack me when I was agreeing with what Mary posted...
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Post by Kim Wolf on May 3, 2013 19:21:38 GMT -5
Did you even read what I wrote? I feel like you're on auto-pilot. You say the same thing every time. If you have something constructive to add, I'm all ears -- and that's why I asked for input. Simply rehashing the same old stuff about how I'm supposedly denying breeds is a waste of your time and mine. If you have a suggestion, I'm open to hearing it. Oddly, it's not all about you. But do you actually READ what you write? If you really don't see the multiple points (in combination with everything else you post) which reflect an anti-purebred mindset, then you need to step back and reflect. And reflect why you choose to attack me when I was agreeing with what Mary posted... Mary's post was very helpful, and I'm glad Mary initiated the conversation. I think she raised some great points, which is why I responded by asking how I can ensure that attendees don't walk away thinking I'm dismissing breeds or denying their existence. It's a very real and valid concern, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing from the community on this forum (or else I wouldn't have come here). That's the kind of conversation that moves things forward. If anyone else has feedback, I'm all ears. Thanks!
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Post by catstina on May 3, 2013 21:31:26 GMT -5
Oddly, it's not all about you. But do you actually READ what you write? If you really don't see the multiple points (in combination with everything else you post) which reflect an anti-purebred mindset, then you need to step back and reflect. And reflect why you choose to attack me when I was agreeing with what Mary posted... Mary's post was very helpful, and I'm glad Mary initiated the conversation. I think she raised some great points, which is why I responded by asking how I can ensure that attendees don't walk away thinking I'm dismissing breeds or denying their existence. It's a very real and valid concern, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing from the community on this forum (or else I wouldn't have come here). That's the kind of conversation that moves things forward. If anyone else has feedback, I'm all ears. Thanks! I must have missed that, where did you respond to Mary's comment? I'm concerned about the genetic research you mention. Do you also plan to talk about how it is a new science and hasn't been independently studied enough to prove if it is accurate? I worry that people put too much stock into DNA tests and that they could eventually be used to hurt our dogs. What would you think of adding "In Shelter Environments" or something to the end of your title in order to avoid further alienating the pure bred fancy? I love my Staffordshire Bull Terrier and my next dog will probably be a Stafford, as well. And she might not be a rescue, I may just buy her from a breeder for the first time in my life. That doesn't make me a bad person. That makes me a passionate person who loves a breed of dog. There is too much breeder hate today and I don't think contributing to that will help the cause. I absolutely agree with this point made by Emily: It's not that purebred dogs have no problems or that AKC doesn't contribute to some of those problems. But it doesn't help dogs in the long run to continue to drive wedges between those who love "all" dogs and those who love a particular breed of dog. Also, just curious since I've seen Emily ask you several times, but have yet to see you answer. If there is nothing to differentiate breeds other than appearance, what do you like so much about Pugs? Do you literally just like Pugs because they're cute? Or is there something about their personality that you like?
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Post by Kim Wolf on May 4, 2013 20:41:14 GMT -5
Thanks, Christina! I don't plan to focus on DNA tests. People have such strong opinions about them, it gets too distracting. And in the context of my presentation -- focusing on adoptions, as well as community pet owner support -- it's not relevant. I do plan to share new research (which will be published in a journal, but has not come out yet) that asked ~6,000 people to look at shelter dogs and guess what the predominant breed is. An average of 58 different breeds were listed for each dog. That shows that people can't agree on what to call shelter dogs -- an important point in the context of animal sheltering, but also with regard to the media and to BSL (since breed experts are rarely the ones making the call). There can only be one correct answer, and the rest will be wrong. So no, I'm not mentioning DNA tests because it's not relevant to the point I'm making. I also plan to mention some of the genetic research that's come out in the past 10 years with regard to genes of major effect. It's important for people to learn that certain physical traits -- such as coat type, tail, ears, size, etc -- are determined by only a few genes, out of the ~19,00 genes a dog has. And none of those trait-defining genes has been linked to behaviors. This is important for mixed-breed dogs, since we traditionally look at physical traits and guess what breed a dog is -- and then we make predictions on how the dog will behave based on those guesses. But with the genetic research coming out, we now know that those traits are not reliable predictors of how a mixed-breed dog will behave. RE: the title...the presentation is next weekend, so it's not possible to change it. I'm not too worried though because it's the content that's more important. I have never said people who purchase dogs from breeders are "bad" people. Other people have, but not me. So the people saying that should be the ones to take up that issue. Quite frankly, I find the "adopt don't shop" mantra exhausting, obnoxious, and alienating. I also think the term "rescue dog" is annoying. I People have dogs -- where they acquire them from is their own business, and who am I to tell people what to do? I personally choose to focus on shelter dogs because they don't have homes yet. I'm also focused on dog owners in the community who don't have access to support and services. I don't care where they got their dogs. I only care that they have the tools needed to keep them in their homes and out of shelters, and without risking public safety or quality of life. RE: Emily's comment, I'm not attempting to bridge divides between groups. That's beyond the scope of this presentation and would not be the right audience to attempt it anyway (I'd want all sides to be represented, and that's not what this conference is). I'm attempting to help my audience (shelters) create more successful dog adoptions, and to help them support existing dog owners in the community -- especially in under-served communities, where supports don't currently exist. With regard to people who love certain breeds -- that's great! So do I! The key point is that this is not an either/or situation. People can love breeds, and that can be harnessed to help those breeds when they end up in shelters. Even in the context of animal shelters, many adopters choose dogs because they want a certain breed. If there's a dog that suits their taste and it's a good match for the person and the pet, then rock on! But in the context of sheltering and community support, we need to go beyond breed alone because many dogs in need (in shelters or in the community) are not purebreds. To be clear, when I say "go beyond breed alone" that does NOT mean ignoring breed or trying to get rid of breeds, etc. This keeps coming up as a concern on this forum, and I've addressed it several times, but I guess it's worth repeating. To answer your question about Pugs, I love the way they look. I think they're cute as hell, yep! And it shouldn't be surprising, since Pugs were never bred for performance or working functions. They were bred for to be companions and for their appearance (correct me if I'm wrong). I can't say much about Pug personalities except for the Pugs I've met and, in particular, the Pug I own. The Pugs I've met through Pug meetup (and just in general) have had a range of personalities. They've also had a range of behaviors. One Pug I know competes in agility and goes to shelter playgroups primarily with big dogs. Others have been content to just sit there and look smug. Depends on the dog. I could tell you all the things I love about my Pug, but I don't want want to bore you But yes, I choose her because I wanted a Pug -- and I wanted a Pug because of the way they look. I just happened to get lucky with her personality and behavior. The next time I acquire a Pug (from whatever source), I'll be more focused on finding a Pug that fits well with my existing dogs and I'll want a low-energy Pug that's on the older side. I got lucky the first time around, but my situation has changed (I have more dogs!) and I have more knowledge going in. I'll probably choose to adopt a Pug, rather than buy one, because I prefer older dogs. And I'm beyond broke, so I couldn't afford to buy one from a respected breeder anyway. Hope that answers your questions, and thanks for giving the feedback in your post above. I appreciate it. If you think of anything else, let me know. I'm leaving tomorrow for a work trip and will have limited access to internet, so shoot me an email at kimtwolf@gmail.com if it's urgent. Thanks!
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Post by RealPitBull on May 8, 2013 8:09:26 GMT -5
I'd be curious to hear how it goes this weekend, and anything you have to report back with, Kim. Hope you'll post an update. And I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but......I just find it SO odd to hear you are attracted to certain breeds and keep gravitating towards them (Pugs and Pit Bulls) yet cannot seem to state anything specific about them that you like. Do you REALLY mean to tell me, you see NO commonality in the individual dogs you meet that belong to a specific breed? REALLY??? (Yes, I'm actually asking a genuine question LOL) Thanks
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Post by Kim Wolf on May 17, 2013 11:54:30 GMT -5
Hey, everyone! First off, thanks to everyone who provided constructive feedback. I really appreciated it!
The workshop went very well and I received positive feedback from everyone.
A few people commented that they felt relieved that they no longer need to treat pit bulls differently than any other dog as a blanket rule (e.g., special policies, blanket restrictions) and they could focus instead on making stronger adoption matches.
Many people commented that they think the influx of pit bull advocates sometimes does a disservice to the dogs by focusing too much attention on them, and they wish pit bulls could fly under the radar instead of constantly being thrown in the spotlight (even when it's positive press). I agree completely.
Mary, with regard to your question, I did't say that I see NO commonality in individual dogs I meet that belong to a specific breed. I could probably find commonalities, if I tried. Like I said above, I'm mostly attracted to pugs for their appearance, so the pugs I met would have that in common, more or less.
If you're talking about behaviors, I'm sure I could go back and find behaviors those pugs had in common. But I can't think of any that would be unique to pugs, so I'm not sure that would be useful information.
You brought up Pit Bulls as a breed I'm attracted to, but I'm not sure I would say that. Of my own dogs, I chose Sarge, Martha, and Bug for different reasons -- not necessarily their breed. They each have different personalities, behaviors, energy levels, degrees of dog tolerance, and so forth. One thing they have in common is their appearance -- I thought all three of them were very attractive and they had "the look" I'm drawn to (cropped ears, bulldog face, brown or black fur). But behavior-wise? I can't think of any behaviors they shared that I don't also see in at least one of my other dogs. For what it's worth, I only have confirmation (from their previous owners) that Martha and Bug came from APBT breeders. I don't have confirmation on Sarge because I've never spoken directly to his previous owner and I only know that the shelter called him a pit bull.
Anyhow, if y'all are up for continuing the conversation, I've been asked to present at Best Friends' conference in October -- the session is about helping shelter dogs get adopted, especially the ones most at risk of euthanasia. They wanted to make the session about pit bulls, but I asked to expand it to any dog "at risk," whatever that means to a particular community. I know Chihuahuas will be a hot topic, in addition to pit bulls and mixed-breed dogs (especially larger ones). The session won't cover dogs that have behavior challenges or other factors that make them "at risk" (because that's outside the scope of what I can speak to) -- it's more about marketing, outreach, and messaging. So, if anyone has thoughts, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!
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Post by michele5611 on May 17, 2013 12:13:18 GMT -5
Glad it went well Kim!
Question you mentioned that people were relieved that they no longer need to treat pit bulls differently than any other dog as a blanket rule. Does this mean that they don't believe or think pit bull adoptions warrant any breed info? Thanks!
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Post by RealPitBull on May 17, 2013 12:17:23 GMT -5
Hmm interesting Kim. I especially found interesting the mention of the influx of advocates actually HURTING the dogs rather than helping.
I do wonder.....are the shelters relieved because they actually think they have a better handle on Pit Bulls (after being counseled by NON-Pit Bull advocates) or are they relieved because they think that they don't have to work harder on placements anymore and can shove more dogs out the door?
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Post by michele5611 on May 17, 2013 12:42:28 GMT -5
Kim not trying to be bitchy but every email I get day after day reminds me how the "education" by non-advocates and the all dogs are individual crowd is "helping" the pit bulls! We are doing a grave disservice to not only the dogs but the owners when we don’t provide them with all the important information.
Regarding another topic but… kcdogblog said "I'm always in favor of more knowledge vs less knowledge It's the ignorance that is leading to dogs being killed now."
So why does that not apply with regards to education?!
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