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Post by AmyJo27 on May 4, 2013 11:57:05 GMT -5
In your opinion is it automatically deemed unadoptable or does it depend on the situation (And Im not talking about true acciedents like seperating a dog fight).
If a dog guards something and bites, If a dog is fearful and bites, etc.
Is there any situation that you believe the dogs issues should be worked with and the dog should be adopted out or automatically PTS.
Thanks!
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pitbullmamaliz
I Love RPBF!
Liz & Inara CGC, TD, TT, B.A., M.A., Ph.D., CW-SR
Posts: 360
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Post by pitbullmamaliz on May 4, 2013 21:19:44 GMT -5
Oooh, touchy subject! I feel that there are enough beautifully-tempered, high bite-threshold dogs in the shelter/rescue system that time and money should be focused on getting as many of them adopted, instead of "rehabilitating" a biting dog. Can they be? Depending on the situation, maybe. But it galls me to see so much time and money spent on one dog when that time and money could be saving multiple dogs. Not a politically correct answer, that's for sure, but I think it's a practical answer.
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Post by maryellen on May 4, 2013 21:24:28 GMT -5
i agree with liz
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Post by megan on May 5, 2013 10:23:36 GMT -5
I am torn on this. Incredibly torn, honestly.. I have seen dogs with bite histories that are easily managed and worked with.... They will never actually bite again. But I have seen dogs with bite histories that are simply not safe dogs.
The person in me that understands fearful dogs and has worked with fearful dogs who bite, knows that many of these dogs have simply been set up to fail repeatedly. It's not their fault. But I also know that there are so few homes and people that are capable of safely adopting and providing lifetime management of a dog with a bite history.
That being said, I do feel as though the majority of rescue groups do not have the time, resources, or capabilities to work with a dog with a bite history. And oddly enough, the rescue folks I know that have those things typically feel that it is irresponsible to adopt out a dog with a bite history.
And I know of several dogs with bite histories that have sat and waited in stressful kennel environments for years without any hope of being adopted because the rescue simply doesn't understand the appropriate methods of working with this type of dog. But the rescue refuses to euthanize the dog, and basic obedience classes with the "correct the dog" attitude do not solve th bite problem.
And I am we'll aware of the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of safe dogs with no bite history that die everyday because there are not enough homes available as it is, let alone homes appropriate for a dog that has bitten.
I think the reality of the situation is that the average rescue group has no business trying to adopt out dogs with bite histories. And by "the average rescue"," I mean 90+% of rescues. But I am not comfortable making a blanket statement that once a dog has bitten, the dog should not be adopted out and should be euthanized. Although, in the end, I do think its the safest option for many of those dogs.
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Post by melonie on May 5, 2013 15:22:05 GMT -5
I used to have a Lab, when he first came to our house, he was scared and confused. He had gone from a house dog, to a yard dog, and now was back to being a house dog. A couple days after we got him, my ex put him outside to do business. A friend of his came over, and approached the dog despite the dog barking. The guy reached out to try and pet him, and got bitten. The guy blamed himself and said he shouldn't have approached him. We were in the house and didn't see it happen. I kept the dog, and never saw that behavior out of him around people. I had lots of kids in and out of my house, he never showed the fear, or aggression again. He did have some fearfulness over noise, and I worked with him to overcome it. When I let the dogs out to do business, I didn't leave them unattended since I did live across the street from a city park. He didn't bark as strangers, and accepted the ones who wanted to meet him with tail wags.
The other instance of dog bite was I believe the fault of the humans. Oliver was adopted out to a family with kids. He had been raised with kids, and dogs. He loved people and attention, he was a very happy dog.
So one day he was laying on the floor with a rawhide and one of the kid is sitting next to him minding her business, and he bites her with no warning. I've heard different versions of the story, I think the one where she was trying to take the chewy away is more likely. When I went over to pick him up, no one was home, but I was told to go ahead and go inside. I couldn't find him, he didn't bark etc. Finally the owner called and told me he was locked in their master bathroom. I discovered a shock collar around his neck. That's when it was revealed that they kept it on him 24/7 because he liked to try and run out the front door every time it was opened. I'm sure Oliver tried to warn the kid, but not vocally. Since I've heard several different stories, I'm pretty sure the kid was likely messing with the dog. Luckily the bite didn't wasn't bad and the kid was ok. He went back to the rescue where Judy kept him until closed her rescue and moved. He was once again a happy dog and loved the volunteers. However, she decided to put him to sleep instead of adopting him out when she moved. She didn't want to take the risk at adopting him out. It wasn't an easy decision for anyone he was almost Winstons twin and very much loved by us. In this instance I lay the blame on the humans, but I wouldn't trust adopting him out to another family unless it had been me, or someone I trusted in handling him.
The third instance hasn't led to a bite. It involves my dog Wrinkles and it is a recent development. Most everyone who's been part of this board knows she's a challenging little dog. I haven't let her have much face time with my granddaughter due to Wrinkles being too much dog. She would knock her down, lick her like mad or completely disregard her and bowl her over getting to what she wanted. There is a gate keeping Wrinkles separate from the living room since she can't be around the other dogs as well. She has a habit of still trying to challenge the other dogs and will growl/bark and hit the gate to make her point. Two weeks ago she did this to Kaiha. She hit the gate hard so that it gave enough to knock her down. Kai had no toys, no food, and there wasn't anything Wrinkles should have considered a resource. (trashbag, paper etc)
She did it again a few days ago, this time Kaiha wasn't knocked down. Now when she comes over I'll be crating Wrinkles. I trust her even less than I did before. I had contacted her rescue a couple of months ago in an attempt to re-home her since there has been a long hard deterioration in harmony here. They lied and dodged my calls, and have broken off all contact with me. I felt that if she could be placed in a single dog, calm home she could begin to wind down and be retrained. Now I'm not so sure what would be best for her. I can't help but feel like I've let her down, but given the living arrangements I'm not sure how to get her to overcome her issues.
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Post by emilys on May 5, 2013 23:04:40 GMT -5
The best dog in the world, the classically great family Lab owned by our neighbors when I was growing up, bit the boy in the family. He was constantly harassing her and he had cornered her. The bite wasn't a bad one. Back in those days, the response was, "you deserved it; now leave alone". She never bit anyone else ever. So I think it's highly situational. An inhibited warning bite like this surely can be forgiven. A hard bite done with serious intent to hurt... a different matter entirely.
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Post by RealPitBull on May 6, 2013 7:53:01 GMT -5
RPB does not place biting dogs. Especially RG'ers or fear biters. Yikes.
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Post by sugar on May 6, 2013 10:08:01 GMT -5
what is 'RG'ers'?
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Post by RealPitBull on May 6, 2013 10:45:32 GMT -5
^Resource guarding
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Post by megan on May 6, 2013 16:27:54 GMT -5
RPB does not placing biting dogs. Especially RG'ers or fear biters. Yikes. I totally respect a rescue's choice NOT to adopt out dogs with bite histories. I truly do. It's a serious liability and it can be extremely dangerous because the majority of people are just not equipped to handle it. That being said, I work with two rescue groups. The one for convenience, it's the only way I can foster because they are close enough with a kennel where my dogs can meet a prospective foster dog. They adopt out any and everything. Dogs that have done maul-type damage not excluded. That is EXTREMELY scary stuff. One of those dogs actually lives only a couple miles from me, and although I know her adopter is responsible, I am beyond petrified of what might happen if that dog were to get out of her house. The other group I work with is similar to RPB, biters are not adopted out. And adopted dogs that bite and are returned.... well, the adoptive family is told about the likely conclusion, some of those adopters decide to keep the dog and work with them and a trainer. Others are not equipped and the prior foster family, if prepared to handle the dog, may be given the opportunity to keep the dog if it's not a seriously dangerous dog. But that is so very situational and not encouraged. I am far more concerned about the rescue that adopts out dogs with serious bite and maul histories than I ever am about euthanizing a dangerous dog. But, for me, it's more of the idea of making a blanket statement that biters should be euthanized. But, not for nothing, regardless of any breed's propensity to bite people, act as a guard dog, etc., when you work with dogs of certain stigmatized breeds, I think it's even more appropriate to be cautious which dogs you adopt out. Sure, it sucks, but those dogs are under the watchful eye of the entire country and the media. So it's a rescue's responsibility to ensure that a dog is safe, and a good example of a breed's temperament, prior to adopting it out.
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Post by AmyJo27 on May 8, 2013 13:20:02 GMT -5
Thank you all for all the feedback. Everyone had many good points. It is a very hard decision and sensitive topic...
As you probably could have guessed, there was a reason for this thread!
Scrappy my newest rescue has been a breeze! Then he came off his shut down,started getting comfortable and I started noticing little signs. Scrappy first had some interest in the kids, hed seek out Avery (I dont let Faith around the rescues because shes young and rude lol) Then he started getting a little nervous about her when she would play and run around. I didnt think too much of it, just made sure she gave him his space and left him alone. Then hed start grumbling and growling when she was on the other side of the room playing, he was on a strict NILIF and I was crating him more again... Then Friday night I had Scrappy out for a little bit and told Avery to give him lots of space. Scrappy was laying on the floor on the other side of the room, Avery came walking over and started climbing to get on the couch which is where I was sitting (Which was on the other side of the room from him) and he started growling...Before I could respond he was after her.... I started yelling "Scrappy NO" Before I could grab him he bit her pretty good on her hand.... Broke the skin in her hand and bruised the top of her hand. After that I kept him away from the kids, his crate was in the bathroom....when the kids would walk by his crate hed lunge and growl. I ran him and walked him really good Monday then brought him home, the kids were in the living room and he started growling as soon as we walked in the door.
Kids make him very nervous and he is ready to defend himself. Its almost like he just wants to get rid of them. Poor guy.
I took him back to Kims yesturday. I dont feel safe placing him in a home. Even if I found a home that is going to have no grandkids, neighbor kids, or kids what so ever I kept asking myself... What would happen if Scrappy got loose? Would he be a threat to anyone? And honestly, I think he would.
He is more than likely going to be PTS. Its now Kims call... I cant have a child aggressive dog whether its fear based, guarding, anything. :/ I can manage dog aggressive dogs by crating and rotating but I cant crate and rotate the kids and dogs.
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Post by maryellen on May 8, 2013 16:15:51 GMT -5
if he was with me and did that he would have been euthanized. but thats just me.. i got alot of flack years ago for euthanizing 2 pit bulls that redirected and bit me and my ex, and went after a 10 year old .. unfortunately i wont place dogs that bite or show unstable temperments but that is just me. alot of rescues here will adopt out dogs like that.
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Post by AmyJo27 on May 8, 2013 16:42:15 GMT -5
I would have but Kim wanted to do it since she's had him much longer than me. Her vet also does it very cheap so she's taking him.
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Post by maryellen on May 8, 2013 16:50:17 GMT -5
there is nothing wrong with that, as long as she does it.. alot of rescues will say they will then adopt the dog out ..not that kim would do that, but out here alot of people do
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Post by AmyJo27 on May 8, 2013 17:13:02 GMT -5
I would be ticked if she did that. I don't think she will but I'd be heated!
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Post by megan on May 17, 2013 10:49:50 GMT -5
I'm just catching up on everything now and wanted to come back to this. I'm sorry for the situation, but I do think you've made the right decision. It's never an easy one, but honestly, it sounds like he is just not a safe dog, however sad that may be.
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Post by AmyJo27 on May 17, 2013 18:49:29 GMT -5
Kim still has Scrappy and has him still available on her page...
Im hoping shes just been busy and is not still going to adopt him out. There is no doubt in my mind that he will eventually bite.
It is sad, very sad. But I personally do not feel comfortable with him in the public. IMO there is no perfect home for him. 1 slip up and he'd be another headline! :/
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Post by maryellen on May 17, 2013 19:04:30 GMT -5
well hopefully she is just busy...but he shouldnt be on the site now
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Post by RealPitBull on May 22, 2013 13:25:01 GMT -5
Jeez, sorry about Scrappy, Amyjo, and that Avery had to get bitten. Hopefully she wasn't too upset by the situation?
Kim should have immediately put him down. Cannot imagine waiting on something like that when it's a pretty cut and dried situation. I know it wasn't your call, and you're just doing what you needed to in giving him back to Kim.
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Post by AmyJo27 on May 22, 2013 15:33:46 GMT -5
Avery was more upset over seeing blood than the actual bite. Shes very freaked out by blood. Once I cleaned up and wrapped her hand she was fine and wanted me to bring Scrappy out again.
I need to ask Kim if she still has him or not. Although I believe she does. :/ Really bothers me.
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