One step forward, two steps back.

[melonie]

Griffin was back to his old scardy cat self.
He wanted nothing to do with me, he took a few treats, but would not budge. So I sat and attempted to talk to him. Once the other dogs settled down it was easier, but he wouldn't come out of his corner.
I tried talking to the other dogs around me, that just got everyone else noisy.
I moved down a couple kennels to give another dog some needed love, and filmed Griffin while I did so. I'm uploading that.
The little turd was ok fine to come out of his corner and join in the barking.

I'm going back tonight when the other volunteers show up. I want to see how they handle him. Right now there are only 2 people that he is comfy with.

I worked with Tar Boy (Romeo). He's a very smart dog. Just hyper, and DA. Pretty sure he's a lab vizsla mix. Couldn't even tell he'd been recently fixed.

Once the video uploads, I'll link it here.
I'm wondering if Griffin is 'saying' yeah lady go away, or if he's more comfortable to act like the other dogs after I moved away.

[melonie]

The dog I'm petting is Sara, the middle dog is Molly.

[maryellen]

honestly you are expecting too much too soon from Griffen.. the way he is didnt happen overnight, and its going to take time and patience to see IF he will even come around. its going to take a long time to see if he can change, and he really shouldnt be adopted until he shows the progress he might or might not make with time...

[megan]

Griffin reminds me a LOT of a fearful pit bull I fostered named Sonny. He was brought in with his mother at ~2 years old. They were found abandoned in an apartment building in Newark, NJ. If you watched him from afar in his kennel, he would look like a "normal" dog. But when you went anywhere near him, he pancaked or backed into a corner and tried to make himself invisible. Total atypical for the breed, as far as interactions with people go. He loved other dogs. They really brought him out of his shell, in that, he would play with them and appear normal, unless people approach. He actually scaled an 8-foot fence trying to escape from someone when they tried to approach, poor boy.

I brought Sonny home to foster and spent every day working with him. He spent those first three months in a closet curled up in a ball avoiding us. He ran if I talked to him, and peed if Rob talked to him. I hand fed him every meal, every day, and did classic desensitization and counter conditioning work with him for 3 months before there was minor progress, and there wasn't good progress until 5 months + prozac. At 8 months, he was tugging with me and snuggling, but still avoiding others. But I had him in my home so I had literally thousands of opportunities for reinforcement on a day-to-day basis with his kibble and various treats, and it took seemingly forever for him to come around.

I value what you're doing, as far as giving him the opportunity to continue to learn to trust people. It's important for dogs like him to have advocates and people who are willing to take their time working with them. But Griffin is going to take lots of time to warm up to you. Like ME said, his behaviors and fear of people didn't develop overnight, so you are working against however many months or years of his behavior. And the way "familiars" handle him won't necessarily give you ways to handle him because they have built trust and will be able to do things with him that he won't be comfortable with you doing just yet. The biggest thing right now is giving him the time and space to trust. It's probably the hardest part in the process because there's not a lot of "doing" except treating and ignoring.

[melonie]

Maryellen, yesterday he was a different dog with Darcy around. A stranger, (the police officer) was there as well as a Darcy's husband. (slightly known) We also had Molly out as well. He did very well.
Unfortunately Darcy is only able to get to the shelter one day a week. I don't know the other person yet.
There is a family that would like to adopt him, but I talked to Darcy about having them foster first. That way he can get out of the shelter, and around people 24/7.

I figured today wouldn't be easy, and it would take some time to get him out of his kennel.
But he wouldn't even approach me, and that was ok too.

I mainly want to see how those he's not comfy with handle him. I think they just open his kennel and let him run out with the other trusted dogs to the dog run. What I don't want them to do is to chase or clap, or intimidate him to get him back to his kennel. I'm going to skip tonight since it has decided to try and storm, so I'll go for the afternoon shift tomorrow.

The biggest worry Darcy has is that Therese is afraid of him. (she is the board president)
If it comes to a point where they have to decide to put a dog down, Darcy is afraid it would be Griffin.
There are three hard to adopt dogs, 2 DA, and Griffin.
I told Darcy my fear of adopting him out to a home would be that the new owners wouldn't understand his fear, and put him in a situation where he felt threatened enough to react.

I'm not entirely clear on his history. I thought he had been there since Feb. when he was 4 mos old. He's 8 months old now. His kennel card said 5/4/13. So I'm not sure where he was since Feb. I do know they got 3 puppies, 2 went to other rescues.

[maryellen]

if its genetics, you cant fix it and he shouldnt be adopted. there are too many sound stable pit bulls (and other breeds) in shelters that should be adopted. dogs with fear issues really need to be CAREFULLY evaluated before placement, sometimes there are worse things then death with dogs with these type of issues. adopting griffen to a family will be a disaster waiting to happen. it doesnt matter if he was good with darcy one day. the bottom line is he is not trustworthy and his behaviors are sketchy to say the least. he is a bite waiting to happen with the wrong person handling him. having a family foster him is a mistake, a huge mistake....

whatever happened to him before he got to the shelter no one will know. what is known is his genetics are NOT good, sound temperment dogs bounce back from stressful situations. unsound dogs DONT. the way he lights up with another dog around is typical of some fearful dogs, they are fine with other dogs and terrified of humans..

and if you are so afraid of him being put into a home where an owner wont understand his fear that right there says HE IS UNSTABLE.. why on earth would you want a dog like this in a home with a family ? or any home? the only ones that should be working with him is a foster home that is a behaviorist home that KNOWS how to work with fear ful dogs.. like megan.... she would be a good foster home, she knows fear ful dogs.. but to put him to a strange home where he cant even handle kennel workers is unfair to him and the new owners.. its being irresponsible to the breed.. and this breed does not need another nail in its coffin with a fearful dog bite... honestly if he cant go to a behaviorist foster home then he should be euthanized due to his fear issues.. its not fair to him to put him in a home where he cant even handle a kennel worker or someone who comes to visit him to work with him. sorry if i am being so blunt, but no way would i adopt out a dog like this - way too much liability and he isnt a stable dog right now.

[melonie]

I had this all typed up and ready to post when my power went out.

So I'll make this short.
I trust your advice and input Maryellen. If I honestly saw any aggression, or felt fear that he was going to bite, I would not hesitate to say this is not an adoptable dog.
I was stating worse case scenario with him, because that is my worst fear.

Sadly there are no dog trainers, behaviorists, or experienced fosters in our area. No one on the board at the shelter has any real dog experience. They're dog lovers, who are trying to do a good thing.
So I am really this dogs only hope, and that's sad too. I only know what worked with Rhett and Diesel. Wrinkles taught me a lot as well. But I still know very little. Only that quiet and calm patience and tasty treats usually wins the trust. I've never seen any dog as timid as this. So is it just me he doesn't like or is it this way with everyone? I don't know if he's met his potential adopter or not, or how he reacted with them. I just know how he has been with me on three occasions.

I'll go in tomorrow afternoon and watch how he is with the various workers and volunteers. If I don't see much change in him, then I'll know that it isn't just me. I will also call Darcy and talk to her about what has been discussed here.

[maryellen]

it really sucks that there is no one there to help you:( its not that he doesnt like you, so dont take it personally. its just he doesnt trust due to a combo of genetics and whatever happened before the shelter and while at the shelter.. so its not personal. he can "like" you one day and one day not like you.. he could have good days and bad days.. heck i fostered Sedona for a short time and some days when i see her she wont go near me and other days like today she comes near me for petting.. dogs with fear issues you cant take it personally.. oh and i could be totally wrong too, so dont take my input to heart.. i was just going based on what i saw from the videos you posted and your descriptions. i only dealt with a handful of fearful dogs, 2 which were mine , sedona, and a few other fosters i had when i used to foster.. i am definitely no expert thats for sure.. i hope someone else like mary or dave posts here, then you could have more input..

the thing with his fear is you dont know if he will bite, he hasnt been backed into a corner or hasnt felt the need to bite, and hopefully he wont.

ive seen puppies grow up in shelters, some take it in stride due to good genetics and think its their home and others i have seen been afraid from the day they got there until the day they left and stayed afraid.. most of it boils down to genetics and what the dog has been subjected to while in the shelters care..

its possible he is just a dog that cant handle a shelter environment even though he lived there for 4 months of his life. i know rufus cant handle a shelter/kennel environment,i cant board him as he falls apart.. fine out of the environment, but put him in that environment and he falls apart immediately.

like megan said, its going to take MONTHS for him to START trusting you.. she went thru it with her foster and it took 3 months for her to see something small change.... its going to take more then a few days for griffen to start trusting you.. (plus i noticed that with some dogs the more you try the more they stay away from you, and the more you ignore them the more they try to interact with you. so maybe darcy ignored him in the beginning and let him get to know her on his terms, which might be why he is good with her.. maybe try ignoring him and seeing if that works, but no matter what its going to really take time , alot of time..

[maryellen]

plus- molly the other dog was around - you stated he perked up with her, and was more social to a degree.. its very possible that she was his crutch at that time to give him the guts to sniff/interact with everyone...

[megan]

Unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to eval a dog like him in a shelter setting. His behaviors "inside" may not be predictable of his behaviors in a home. To some degree, they are predictable, in that he will be afraid. But he could lighten up in a home with other friendly dogs much more quickly. That being said, a foster home would be ideal, but not one with children and not one with inexperienced adults. I've seen dogs like this placed in homes with inexperienced folks and it's about 50/50 how it turns out. What sucks, he is just my "type," and the type that typically fits in very well with my two knuckleheads... sadly he's so far away and I'm at capacity right now

[Dave]

Melanie, just my two cents... Of course without seeing him in person I can't evaluate him, but from what you're telling us I would agree with Megan and Maryellen, for the most part. In my recent experience with fearful, non-trusting dogs (read that Sedona) it takes an immense amount of patience, stability and calm to bring around a poorly socialized, fearful dog. Having an animal companion nearby can help ease the stress, but it would also have to be a non-confrontational pet. There are very few adoptive homes, much less fosters, that are equipped to deal with this type of dog. If Griffin has been this way for that long, it's pretty certain he's not going to come around in the shelter environment. If there's no one to step up for him that can give him that environment for an extended period, it may be best to stop torturing him in the shelter and let him go.

However, if it is just you he's not warming up to, give it a little time and see if he begins to trust you. It may be that you are the new influence, and he's not happy with your attention. If he comes to trust you in a couple days, I would say there's hope for him for a foster, or knowledgeable adopter. But he needs to be free of the stressful shelter environment.

[RealPitBull]

Just throwing my two cents in - I wouldn't give a dog like this a second glance (i.e. I would NOT pull him - the only fearful dogs I will give exception to are fight bust dogs). Definitely would not place him into a foster-to-adopt situation unless the home had some real experience with other fearful dogs. Nine times out of ten, a dog like this is going to show fear aggression once he is settled in somewhere and feeling a little braver. That is why you should never place a fearful dog like this unless he has some real time in a foster home setting FIRST.

Just my opinion. It is really wonderful you are trying to give him a chance.

[melonie]

I'm getting ready to head back out to the shelter to watch him with the volunteers. No thunder to influence, just skies.
I'll update on what I see.

[melonie]

I got to talk to one of the main workers today. She is there 5 days a week. When Griffin came in at 4 mos he was very scared, very skinny, covered in feces and pee.
He doesn't go to anyone except Darcy, and the dog Molly is sort of his security blanket.
He wanted absolutely nothing to do with the person who was interested in adopting him.
Most often they use Molly to get him out of his kennel and outside. Other times they have to drag him out because he will not budge.

It got a bit chaotic today as a few people came to look at dogs, and pick up boarders, and a preschool tour came through.
A friend of mine actually showed up to see what they had available for adoption. He lost his old Great Pyr. a few months back and is ready to adopt again. I talked to him about fostering Griffin. His home would be ideal. No small kids, quiet home life, but he has a cat. The shelter staff is pretty sure Griffin wouldn't do well with a cat.

Through all this Griffin just sat in his corner and didn't attempt to engage anyone. I was stuck outside with Romeo when the kids came through, but I watched through the window. He sat alert for a bit, then laid down.
The rest of the dogs were wiggle waggle at their kennel door.

Before all the chaos, when most all the dogs were outside, I sat in Molly's kennel next to Giffin. Again he ignored me and the ham tossed into his kennel.

I'm going to call Darcy this evening to talk about Griffins future.

On a brighter note, leash pulling Romeo learned not to pull real quickly today. Two small boys, around 50lb each took him for a walk. I went with them as a precaution, with a bag full of treats. Each boy held a leash, one attached to the harness, the other his collar. When Romeo pulled I taught the boys what to do. When Romeo turned to figure out why they stopped, I treated him. A block into it he was done pulling for the most part. By the end of the walk 1 boy walked him with out problems. Then we worked on 'down' and went through sit again. He's smart and learns quick.

[maryellen]

that poor dog has been living his short life in fear since he arrived at the shelter.. that is really really sad that no one saw this its no life for him, it isnt fair and i feel really sad for Griffin living in fear for his short life of everything

[melonie]

I think they saw it, they just don't know what to do, or understand how to handle it.