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Post by emilys on Sept 12, 2013 18:44:01 GMT -5
well maybe.. maybe not.
I'm waiting for one of these "it's just a little stimulation" folks to test it on their own NECKS.
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Post by megan on Sept 13, 2013 9:45:12 GMT -5
I saw this post too. Made me want to punch my computer.
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Post by michele5611 on Sept 13, 2013 9:45:33 GMT -5
Well apparently they did test it Emily and I am sure it felt fantastic!  |
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 13, 2013 9:54:08 GMT -5
I cannot stand e-collar people. Honestly, they bend over backwards trying to explain away the pain they cause dogs. Sorry electricity is NOT REQUIRED to train ANY DOG. Yeah, I TOTALLY understand how e-collars work, too. I've gotten in so many arguments with e-collar people and the mental gymnastics they go through to justify what they do is INSANE. If you have to take SO MUCH TIME justifying what you are doing to your dog in the name of "training" then there is something wrong.
I also cannot stand when people say "positive training is one method and sometimes that doesn't work, so we need to try something else". Positive training isn't a "method". There are fifty billion variations on the theme of "positive/pain free/force free training" and people who give up on "positive training" IME just have NOT received proper education or don't have the knowledge or proper understand of application.
Also, am I reading that right, the dog left in a home that didn't do anything with him and he was "misbehaving" and then they started using shock on him and lo and behold he's all "better" now?
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Post by michele5611 on Sept 13, 2013 9:59:50 GMT -5
"A simple electrical pulse that DOES NOT HURT IN ANY WAY. It is akin to a tap on the shoulder, to say, hey look this way, pay attention to me"
Look this way can be taught with out needing a electrical pulse.
So the dog is not getting enough exercise or one on one time so they automatically went to e-collar. Just surprised since they identified that the dog needed more exercise and one on time that they didn't start with that first instead of move right on to e-collar. Just sounds like they didn't try other training methods and just went right to e-collar...unless I am mistaken.
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Post by megan on Sept 13, 2013 10:00:36 GMT -5
I also cannot stand when people say "positive training is one method and sometimes that doesn't work, so we need to try something else". Positive training isn't a "method". There are fifty billion variations on the theme of "positive/pain free/force free training" and people who give up on "positive training" IME just have NOT received proper education or don't have the knowledge or proper understand of application. Agreed. My favorite is when you try to talk to those types of people about learning theory and they tell you, "Everyone has a theory, doesn't mean it works..." It's at that point that I understand that they clearly don't understand science, and I politely remind them that Learning Theory is not a "theory," as in, someone's idea about something. It's a SCIENTIFIC THEORY, the same as the Theory of Gravity.... and ask them if they'd like to debate that also. And I'll tell ya what, I have a decent grasp of the 4 quadrants, the mechanics and timing of rewards, etc., but there are some things I can't do yet, and I know it's user error. It's not that my dog doesn't understand the nail clippers = happy things, it's that I'm going too fast, skipping a step, or not using high enough rewards, etc. It's ME that needs more training to do it right, not the dog that needs an e-collar to "behave." |
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 13, 2013 10:04:47 GMT -5
A simple electrical pulse that DOES NOT HURT IN ANY WAY. It is akin to a tap on the shoulder, to say, hey look this way, pay attention to me Look this way can be taught with out needing a electrical pulse. So the dog is not getting enough exercise or one on one time so they automatically went to e-collar. Just surprised since they identified that the dog needed more exercise and one on time that they didn't start with that first instead of move right on to e-collar. Yeah, what you said. IF it was just a little "hey, pay attention tap", you're a moron for spending all that money on an e-collar when your dog is SOOO SOFT all it takes is a little "tap" and bam, you've punished the behavior and the dog never does said behavior again. E-COLLARS ARE POSITIVE PUNISHMENT and NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT BASED TRAINING TOOLS. PERIOD. You zap the dog when he does the wrong behavior, or you keep zapping him until he does the right behavior. End of story!! The dog works to AVOID THE ZAP because guess what? Getting  at the very BEST is NOT PLEASANT. Sorry, I just have very little patience for people who try to twist facts and blur the view of reality because they are not capable of just acknowledging the TRUTH of what they are doing to their dog. Peace out, Positive [Punishment] Pit Bull. |
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Post by emilys on Sept 13, 2013 13:33:33 GMT -5
A simple electrical pulse that DOES NOT HURT IN ANY WAY. It is akin to a tap on the shoulder, to say, hey look this way, pay attention to me Look this way can be taught with out needing a electrical pulse. So the dog is not getting enough exercise or one on one time so they automatically went to e-collar. Just surprised since they identified that the dog needed more exercise and one on time that they didn't start with that first instead of move right on to e-collar. Yeah, what you said. IF it was just a little "hey, pay attention tap", you're a moron for spending all that money on an e-collar when your dog is SOOO SOFT all it takes is a little "tap" and bam, you've punished the behavior and the dog never does said behavior again. E-COLLARS ARE POSITIVE PUNISHMENT and NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT BASED TRAINING TOOLS. PERIOD. You zap the dog when he does the wrong behavior, or you keep zapping him until he does the right behavior. End of story!! The dog works to AVOID THE ZAP because guess what? Getting at the very BEST is NOT PLEASANT. Sorry, I just have very little patience for people who try to twist facts and blur the view of reality because they are not capable of just acknowledging the TRUTH of what they are doing to their dog. Peace out, Positive [Punishment] Pit Bull. yeah, this is exactly what I don't get. They are LYING when they say it's "just an attention tap", because there are other ways to get a dog's attention. ECollars work because they HURT and the dog wants to stop the hurt. I'd have a lot more respect for someone saying, "yeah it hurts but it's only momentary", because at least that would be honest, then the "oh it's just a "little stimulation" people. |
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Post by michele5611 on Sept 13, 2013 14:02:50 GMT -5
For some clarification from their facebook page...."IT WAS NOT THE LAST RESORT, we are promoting a method of training that is suited to MAUI."
If it was not the last resort but it is suited to Maui I am just wondering what if any other forms of training did they try?
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 13, 2013 14:13:37 GMT -5
^ Right, because some dogs just can't learn unless they are being zapped. Not even a last resort, just the easiest one. Punishing behaviors is HIGHLY rewarding for the human doing the punishing. This IMO is a BIG reason why some are soooooooo strongly adamant that they MUST use punishment in order to train. It is a difficult thing to let go of especially when you are not sitting there pouring over all the manuals and science journals, etc proving that R+/-P is the way to go. And people just don't even REALIZE how strongly they are being reinforced for using punishment. But they are - then create all kinds of stories to tell themselves about why it's actually ok to jerk/shock/choke/pinch/kick/etc their dog into compliance.
"It is bad to hurt animals and animal abuse is wrong. - I make up a story about how it is necessary to inflict pain on animals in the name of 'training' and then use mental gymnastics to explain how what I am doing does not actually cause pain. My actions are 'right' since they apparently work i.e. I receive reinforcement from doing them, and hence my beliefs about said actions are also reinforced."
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Post by suziriot on Sept 13, 2013 15:10:25 GMT -5
^ Amen Mary!
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Post by emilys on Sept 13, 2013 18:12:33 GMT -5
^ Right, because some dogs just can't learn unless they are being zapped. Not even a last resort, just the easiest one. Punishing behaviors is HIGHLY rewarding for the human doing the punishing. This IMO is a BIG reason why some are soooooooo strongly adamant that they MUST use punishment in order to train. It is a difficult thing to let go of especially when you are not sitting there pouring over all the manuals and science journals, etc proving that R+/-P is the way to go. And people just don't even REALIZE how strongly they are being reinforced for using punishment. But they are - then create all kinds of stories to tell themselves about why it's actually ok to jerk/shock/choke/pinch/kick/etc their dog into compliance. "It is bad to hurt animals and animal abuse is wrong. - I make up a story about how it is necessary to inflict pain on animals in the name of 'training' and then use mental gymnastics to explain how what I am doing does not actually cause pain. My actions are 'right' since they apparently work i.e. I receive reinforcement from doing them, and hence my beliefs about said actions are also reinforced." this is full of incredible awesome and win...  |
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 15, 2013 10:03:15 GMT -5
^thanks Em **blush** |
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I look forward to learning much here