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Post by catstina on Jan 12, 2014 19:53:32 GMT -5
Experienced my first REAL bull breed fight today. My coworker's 80 pound Pit Bull (maybe mixed with a dash of Presa), Domino, and Saxon got into it big time. Domino had Saxon's ear in his mouth and was shaking his head, I thought for sure that he was going to rip it off. Astonishingly, the ear was not damaged. My coworker got Dom off of Saxon by getting on top of him and prying his mouth open. Once released, Saxon proceeded to jump back at Dom grabbing him by the nose. I was able to get Saxon off of Dom by grabbing his back legs causing him to release Dom's nose. Jesus it was scary. Probably only about 30 seconds long, but felt like forever. I really thought Dom was going to take off Saxon's ear. He had such a good hold of it, I think he actually had a hold of the skin in front of Saxon's ear, but didn't even break the skin. All of Saxon's wounds are scratches, no punctures. Dom's nose was barely nicked, too, though I didn't see it, my coworker told me about it. It was 1000% our fault. Dom is food aggressive and had a work to eat toy, but last time he let Saxon take it and showed no aggression towards him, so we let Saxon into the office thinking Dom would be fine again. We never should have assumed he'd be ok just because he was once. Ugh. Feel so stupid, but thanks to our quick thinking and knowledge of how to break up dog fights, the damage was minimal and both dogs will be fine. Here's Saxon's damage: Dom is the dog in the foreground: I was really worried this might make Saxon DA or DR, but he hasn't show any signs of any aggression with any of the other dogs at the store after the fight. He even played a very growly game of tug with Dom's sister, Callie, and they were fine: I'm still a bit shaken up about it and feel so bad for my coworker. She was really upset and offered to pay for Saxon to go to the E-Vet, but he wasn't hurt that badly, I just cleaned it with peroxide and put Vetericyn and liquid bandaid on his wounds. He'll be fine, physically, but I'm worried it might have some effect on his temperament. Is there anything I can do to make sure Saxon doesn't have any negative behaviors as a result of this experience?
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Post by catstina on Jan 12, 2014 20:46:51 GMT -5
P.S. Does anyone know of any good links with information about how to break up a dog fight? I want to post about it on Saxon's page, but am only finding links with some pretty bad advice.
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Post by suziriot on Jan 12, 2014 21:08:16 GMT -5
OMG, so glad both dogs are ok. I am shaken up for days after having to break up a fight. It's awful. I'm almost certain I remember there being some info here on the forum on breaking up fights. But I know I have some info somewhere. I'll try to find it.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 12, 2014 22:15:32 GMT -5
Ii takes a while for dogs to gt back to norml. Me personally i wouldnt let him near that dog again period. It might affect him you will know soon enough, hopefully it wont . Any time a dog is food aggressive you NEVER take any chances.and he shouldnt hav played with that other dog after imo
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Post by catstina on Jan 12, 2014 23:14:38 GMT -5
I've already acknowledged that we made a mistake letting Saxon in the office when Dom had his bob a lot. I know it was stupid. We just really didn't think Dom would react that way to Saxon. What's done is done, though, so rubbing that in even more when I've already acknowledged that it was a mistake is not helping me in the least bit. My coworker has decided she won't be bringing Dom back to work. I feel badly about that, but think it's really the best choice since some of my other coworkers may not understand the importance of keeping him separated from other dogs.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2014 7:12:27 GMT -5
I was not rubbing it in.. If you feel i was rubbing it in i cant change your thoughts. Again if u know a dog has isues with things dont bring other dogs around whether its food or toys or objects. Just because they dont react the first time doesnt mean they wont the second.
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Post by adoptapitbull on Jan 13, 2014 10:24:25 GMT -5
I know that in the heat of the moment, your thoughts are to grab near their mouths or even to grab their mouths open. Seriously, I was very close to losing fingers that way. Have a break stick. Maybe not in the office or lying out on a counter, but definitely in your purse. You never know who's going to bring in a dog who is DA, or like you said, a dog you knew and had interacted with before, could have a DA moment. And all those "grab them in the penis!" "lift their back legs" "airhorn!" suggestions are bunk. Try your best to immobilize the dog who's got a hold, because the shaking of the head is what rips and tears so bad. Hopefully this never happens again. At least now, though, you'll be better prepared.
And as much as this wasn't Saxon's fault at all as he was not the aggressor, keep in mind he is at the age where some dogs decide they're not as cool with other dogs. I don't think that'll happen to Saxon, but you've always got to keep it in the back of your head.
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Post by catstina on Jan 13, 2014 10:42:53 GMT -5
I'm thinking of buying a couple of break sticks to keep at work. My coworker jumped on Dom and pried his mouth right open. She was great, so quick. I didn't know what to do and was scared to grab Saxon and make the situation worse since she already had Dom pinned to the ground and was trying to get his mouth open. Once he was released, I grabbed him and took him downstairs to check him over. I seriously thought his ear was going to be severed, I thought for sure I'd be on my way to the E.Vet. I'm astonished the damage was so minimal and I know for sure that it was because of my coworker's quick thinking in jumping on Dom. A breakstick in my purse wouldn't have helped because my purse was in my locker. I think we should have one behind the counter and one in the office upstairs. We have people bringing in DA dogs all the time and it's pretty amazing we haven't had any bad fights yet. That said, I think it's because most of the employee dogs wouldn't fight back if attacked. I now know Saxon would. Which is why I kept him upstairs for most of yesterday after the fight and then kept him tethered behind the counter when I brought him back downstairs. I only allowed the game of tug because Saxon instigated it and Callie is the kind of dog who would back down if it got heated (which it didn't). I think he'll be fine, but I'm definitely being careful. I walked in the door first and held my roommate's asshole dog back when we got home last night just in case Saxon didn't feel like taking his bullshit (he's an obnoxious little Schnauzer/Terrier thing that always barks and growls at him when we walk through the door). He was fine then, too, but I will continue to be careful. I'm concerned he might be iffy around other male bull breeds because he used to get stiff around them when he was about a year and a half, so I'll be extra cautious around them, but not to the point where he'll pick up on it and it will make things worse, obviously.
I know the whole thing was preventable. I know we fucked up in letting Saxon near Dom with his food toy. I know that. I can't go back in time and keep it from happening. All I can do is be more careful in the future and be thankful for my coworker's quick actions, which probably saved Saxon's life.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2014 11:01:38 GMT -5
Oh Cat, so sorry this happened. DON'T beat yourself up, it happens to the best of us, seriously. I don't think anyone on this forum hasn't had to break up a fight. Live and learn, that's all you can do. They are living creatures and we can't always know or predict or prevent. You are a fantastic dog mom, sometimes things just happen. The main thing is that everyone is ok! SO that's the positive here, and you just move on and figure out how to prevent the same thing in the future, which is what you are doing.
Breaksticks in the store and knowledge on how to use them is not a bad idea at all, I'd encourage that.
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Post by melonie on Jan 13, 2014 13:58:29 GMT -5
Like Mary said, don't beat yourself up. We've all been there I think. It's very scary for us to see our "fur babies" act like this. Luckily Saxon is well socialized, so I'm guessing the other dog did something so rude in his reaction, that he had to react to. Winston has been there, and he's not DA. But he has proven that he will defend himself. So I do my part in making sure he's not put in that position. After I've experienced dog fights, it's taken me a while to calm down and relax and trust myself again. I tend to be hyper vigilante and paranoid afterwards. I'm pretty sure the people at the shelter think I'm half nuts with all my caution warnings, but it's for a good reason! I would let Saxon de-stress and have a bit of a break from dogs, then have a play date with his favorite boxer... In the future, I would keep a high value yummy or toy on you so that you can distract him when ahole dogs come around at work. With the roommates ahole dog, any chance she would train with with you distracting him when Saxon comes in? As for the break stick.. ME, Mary, what do you think about these, www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=bone+paper+folder+tool&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abone+paper+folder+toolThey're a bone (paper) folding tool for scrap booking. Could something like this be used in place of a true break stick? Or is it too small and fragile? Every time I see one, I'm reminded of a break stick. But, if it could be used it could be discretely kept in a back pocket. Maybe someone makes a smaller, sturdier break stick? But, I'd definitely stash one behind the counter or where ever else the dogs hang out, just as a precaution.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2014 14:25:16 GMT -5
^ Good post! I'm not sure about those bone folders. They do look exactly like break sticks. But probably not strong enough. I recommend the PBRC sticks. I know some people also use hammer handles (without the head, obviously). www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html
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Post by catstina on Jan 13, 2014 15:04:59 GMT -5
Saxon tried to take Dom's toy and Dom went after him. He had what I thought was Saxon's ear, but turned out to be the skin of his forehead in front of his ear, in his mouth and was shaking him around like a toy. Saxon was screaming like a person. It was after my coworker got Dom to release Saxon that he went after Dom. So it was a sort of revenge thing, I suppose. The only injuries on Dom were the scratch on his nose from Saxon biting him and some scratches on his belly from Saxon kicking at him to try and get away. Saxon has the pretty deep cut on his neck/shoulder, a cut on his cheek, a few on the back of his neck (one of which would have been a lot worse had he not been wearing his heavy duty collar), and some tiny scratches on his forehead (I still can't believe that wasn't worse since Dom had such a hold of him there). I'll keep Saxon upstairs or tethered behind the counter for the next few weeks to be safe.
As for my roommate's dog, I doubt she'd be open to training him, she seems to think that this is just the way he is and it's perfectly acceptable behavior. I'll try to talk to her, though.
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Post by catstina on Jan 13, 2014 18:26:32 GMT -5
So my roommate's asshole dog always freaks out at the door when someone knocks. Saxon has never reacted to this, but just now he ran downstairs and let out big deep barks at the door along with asshole dog. I ran after him and pulled him away from the door and put him in my room to keep it from escalating and him redirecting onto asshole dog. It must be related to his attack as he's never reacted this way before, but it's interesting to me that this would be a way that his behavior would change from the fight. Does this seem strange to anyone else?
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Post by emilys on Jan 13, 2014 21:16:58 GMT -5
so sorry you had this experience. SCARY!!!! I'm so glad damage was minimal
I can't really speak from personal experience ... though my Lulu did start to hate border collies after a couple of bad incidents with them.
But you know there IS this thing we talk about called "turning on" . So personally I would be very cautious about Saxon and other dogs where there are resources (toys, treats) that could be become objects of contention... in fact since it was Saxon who grabbed the toy, you know that may happen in the future, so you simply must be vigilant except with dogs you already know won't object. Some dogs won't... but some will. Mr P has decided that any dog that comes up to the hole he's digging for mice must be warned loudly and ferociously. So far the dogs have all been, like "ok dude, whatever". But now I just don't let other dogs come up to him when he's digging... because they may be that dog who will want to fight him for it.
. And I would also be cautious about who Saxon plays with for awhile.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2014 22:40:23 GMT -5
The adrenaline can last two weeks until it gies back to normal so saxon is in a heightened state now. You will see behaviors you didnt before due to the adrxnaline. Keepp the roommates dog away at all costs to saxon or you will A. Have a bad fight. B. be told to move out due to the bad fight.
No rough play at all with other dogs for now
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2014 22:41:21 GMT -5
I use pbrc breaksticks .
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Post by catstina on Jan 14, 2014 2:06:34 GMT -5
I hate that stupid little dog. If Saxon is ever home alone without me (which rarely happens), I put him in my closed room. She lets her rat run around loose and bark at everyone who walks by the house. She also locks him out of her room some nights. It's going to be hard to keep him away from Saxon, but I will definitely do my best. Saxon will not be wrestling with other dogs any time soon and at work I'll keep him in the office or tethered behind the counter for a while to be safe. I'll definitely be keeping him away from Jane for a while because she doesn't tolerate any of his shit and won't hesitate to growl at him or give him the stink eye for looking at her wrong and I wouldn't want him to escalate that. Ugh, I just keep hearing his screaming and seeing Dom's clenched jaws on Saxon's flesh. I really thought we'd be at the E-Vet. I'm still amazed at how little damage he did. I feel so bad for my coworker. She is so upset and feels so guilty about it, but I am so thankful that she was there to get Dom off of Saxon. Had she not been there, I don't know if I'd have been able to break it up. I don't even want to think about what would have happened to Saxon. The PBRC break sticks are the ones I was thinking of buying for work.
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Post by megan on Jan 14, 2014 13:52:50 GMT -5
I'm so sorry to hear about this glad there was no major damage. You have to stop beating yourself up about it though. I know it's easier said than done. Roxy was attacked by a foster dog 4 years ago and to this day, I can still only surmise what the trigger was. There was only minor wounds (punctures similar to Saxon), but I still feel guilty. Unfortunately it's a crappy lesson, albeit one we sometimes learn the hard way That being said, remember they are still animals and no matter what we do, dogs are still dogs. Management can fail, accidents happen, and animals do things we don't expect.
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Post by catstina on Jan 14, 2014 20:29:41 GMT -5
I feel bad for my coworker. She feels so guilty and won't stop apologizing to me. Of all of my coworkers, I guess I was the best one to have my dog attacked because I think I'm more understanding than most of my coworkers would have been. I know it was our mistake and not either dog's fault. I know that we both were at fault, neither of us should have assumed Dom would be ok. I don't blame her at all. Work was rough today. Saxon was safe upstairs all day, but every yelp and bark in the groomshop sent me into a panic. I also had to keep telling the story to my coworkers who kept asking about it. I teared up a bit talking to the CEO about it (she was there to do unrelated work, but asked about it). I just have to keep telling myself that Saxon's ok, Dom's ok, and everything is going to be ok. We got lucky. We learned a hard lesson and it will make us safer and more vigilant for the future. I'm going to write a blog post about it for PBAM and for Saxon's page so hopefully others can learn from our mistakes.
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