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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 3, 2008 9:19:45 GMT -5
Has anyone been learning about/using this method? I would love to get a discussion going on using this with dog-aggro Pit Bulls. The little I've done has been pretty interesting. www.behaviorlogic.com/id160.html
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 5, 2008 14:48:14 GMT -5
This method has fascinated me for about 2 years now, since I first learned about it from one of its creaters on an email list. The method is simple in theory: aggression = "I want that person/dog to go away, so that is why I bark, growl, lunge and bite". The dog does these things because he believes that is what makes the 'bad thing' go away. This method helps teach the dog that aggression doesn't work anymore; he must try other behaviors to see if THOSE work to make the 'bad thing' go away. Done properly this is NOT flooding, dogs are worked just below threshold, and ideally a dog taken through the process will never aggress during treatment.
To set treatment up, identify what makes the subject dog aggress (another dog, for example), and have the owner hold the subject dog on leash. At a distance that reflects the dog's threshold, a handler and decoy dog will enter the picture. When the dog offers behaviors that are NOT aggression, the decoy dog will be taken away (moved far enough away that it is no longer viewed as a threat, but ideally NOT out of sight of the subject dog). This is done over and over, inching the decoy dog closer, until the decoy dog has gotten to the subject dog and the two can interact peacefully (prior to contact, something happens called switchover, in which the subject dog switches from wanting to make the bad thing go away to wanting to engage the bad thing in a friendly way).
This is an extremely simplied version of the treatment, but I wanted to give you guys an overview. I am starting to use this on dog aggressive Pit Bulls and the preliminary work is IMPRESSIVE. It's also a glimpse into the mind of Pit Bulls and this treatment may very well put an end to the 'they want/like to fight' myth. I've worked with my own dog who I've been working with for 10 years using other methods yet we've still battled serious dog aggression. Using this method, over the course of three sessions/less than 3 hours), I've gotten him within 6 or so feet of another dog, with him remaining CALM AND NON REACTIVE. This would have been IMPOSSIBLE for this dog, in any circumstances, pre-CAT.
Pit Bull-related dog-directed aggression is of HUGE interest to me, and I very much want to continue experimenting with this new method. I'll be posting updates here as I continue to work with this treatment. If anyone in the central NJ area has a dog-aggressive/reactive APBT that they would like to set up a treatment session for, please let me know. I'd love to work with you.
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Post by valliesong on Nov 7, 2008 19:52:22 GMT -5
I am really interested in learning more about this, but I doubt anyone local has the DVD for me to borrow. Wanna drive over here and treat Aiden?
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 8, 2008 7:34:40 GMT -5
Aiden would actually be a prime candidate for the treatment.
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Post by purplepaws121 on Feb 4, 2009 6:32:09 GMT -5
I can't get the link to take me anywhere...?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 4, 2009 6:37:51 GMT -5
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Post by emilys on Feb 4, 2009 10:09:58 GMT -5
It seems just like the standard method for teaching a dog to direct attention to the handler rather than the other dog (or whatever). (find the distance at which the dog doesn't react and then click/treat) What am I missing?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 4, 2009 11:00:21 GMT -5
It seems just like the standard method for teaching a dog to direct attention to the handler rather than the other dog (or whatever). (find the distance at which the dog doesn't react and then click/treat) What am I missing? No, not even close. ;D No clicking, no treating, no food. In fact, with dogs that have been clicked/treated a lot for looking at the owner, you often have trouble because the dog does not look at the other dog or human - and isn't learning a new way to deal with triggers. You WANT the dog to look at and deal with the other dog/human. So far, the dog's been using aggression to control his environment. You are teaching new behaviors to help him control the environment through this method. It's not about incompatable behaviors (which is what the click/treat method is about). It's about new behaviors that help the dog interact with his environment in a more appropriate way. This method uses negative reinforcement because when the aggressive dog does something appropriate, the other dog or the human moves away. Eventually the dog comes to learn that the thing he's been trying to get to leave actually isn't so bad - and begins to interact with that thing in a friendly way (this last step is called 'switch over'). CAT has a lot of applications, from shy and fearful dogs, to very aggressive dogs; it is being used with feral cats as well and other animals. The traditional procedure is for use on animals that are seeking distance with their behavior, but it has also been 'reversed' (using closure of distance as a reinforcer) for dogs that are obnoxious greeters, reactive because the dog is frustrated and wants to greet, etc.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 4, 2009 13:33:35 GMT -5
Pat Miller has a CAT workshop coming up: WORKSHOPS For trainers and committed dog owners CAT (Constructional Aggression Treatment) 4 days, $1250 for working participants; $400 to audit April 16-19 October 1-4 REACTIVE ROVER 3 days, $650 for working participants; $200 to audit June 5-7 October 23-25 SHAPING 2 days, $400 for working participants; $150 to audit SEMINARS Pat Miller 2009 Seminars February 6 - Leesburg, VA, Fast Friends Greyhound Rescue February 21-22 - Orlando, Florida; << _www.puppyworks.com_ (http://www.puppyworks.com/) >> March 28-29 - Minnesota; << _SerendipityDanes@..._ (mailto:SerendipityDanes@...) >> June 13-14 - Massachusetts; << _www.puppyworks.com_ (http://www.puppyworks.com/) >> November 14-15 - New York; << _www.puppyworks.com _ (http://www.puppyworks.com ) >> Pat Miller is now booking seminars for 2010 and 2011. Contact us for seminar-hosting information. "Fostering harmony between the human and non-human animals of our world..." Pat Miller, BS, CPDT, CDBC Peaceable Paws, LLC PO Box 3146 Hagerstown, Maryland 21741 301-582-9420 www.peaceablepaws.comAnd has a DVD on CAT: Also available, full-length (5 hour) and edited version (90 minutes) of the CAT (Constructive Aggression Treatment) procedure (developed and studied by Jesus Rosales Ruiz and Kellie Snider) with Jolanta Benal's Juni, as described in Whole Dog Journal. available at www.peaceablepaws.comGo to our website at _www.peaceablepaws.com_ (http://www.peaceablepaws.com/) or call 301-582-9420. We take check, credit cards or PayPal! Mary~ If you haven't already, Pat posted about her initial intro to the CAT process, the post is on TDF: Message #6823 Thought you might be interested in reading that.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 4, 2009 14:11:24 GMT -5
Thanks Jessica, I'll take a look....I've read her review in the Whole Dog Journal. She's also on the CAT list with me; it seems she's kinda been sold on the process along the way.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 4, 2009 14:43:48 GMT -5
I can't remember who it was or where I saw it, may have been on TDF where one of the trainers was describing a reactive (rovers) dog class. Class was outside in a parking lot and the dogs were kept in the vehicles and rewarded for calm behavior through a cracked window. Progression was made and the goal was to have the dogs eventually out of the cars, on leash in a class/group setting with the other dogs.
I think discussion about this came up on the heels of CAT discussions. Have you heard more about the reactive classes done this way?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 4, 2009 14:53:21 GMT -5
Sounds like a R+ based program. I'd imagine the dogs were kept in cars to keep them (and others) safe/confined? Probably a take on good ole desensitization and counter conditioning. Research was done in regards to CAT and they found that desensitization was not part of the equation with the CAT procedure. I have only limited experience with CAT, but I've read about it and discussed it TONS, seen the DVDs and attended a seminar. As soon as the weather warms up, I plan on doing more experimentation with it. It's totally interesting and it is really cool to watch dogs develope better behavior and realize, "HEY! I can do OTHER things!" My dog-aggro dog with seemingly NO concept of calming/appeasement gestures was doing ALL sorts of amazing (to me ) things in a very short period. It was like WOW, he DOES actually speak dog language! So anyone in my general area that would like to learn more, has a reactive/aggressive dog, or would like to volunteer to decoy, please get in touch.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 4, 2009 14:58:03 GMT -5
I need to see the DVDs, I *think* my "real" trainer friend may have bought one so I'll check and steal it from her.
I definitely think I need to really learn more about this and haven't pursued it simply b/c working with really DA dogs is just not my thing. Anything above typical leash reactivity, normal arousal for some reason just doesn't interest me.
But I think the more I see of the CAT it will intrigue me and I'll want to learn as much as I can!
Thanks for bringing this up!
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Post by andreacassel on Feb 4, 2009 14:59:39 GMT -5
That sounds great!! We were fostering a weim with HUGE dog aggression - wish I had known about that a few months ago!!! Would have saved me countless jogs around the block with her if I could have taken another dog as well...
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