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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 6, 2008 11:53:18 GMT -5
....this term refers to thee breeds, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier".
Really? Says who? BSL drafters? The media? Newbies?
I've always considered "Pit Bull" to be shorthand for American PIT BULL Terrier. AmStaffs can be registered as American Pit Bull Terriers as well, so technically you can call AmStaffs "Pit Bulls", too, if you are so inclined. Staffordshire Bull Terriers? NOT Pit Bulls in my book. (Emily S, I think you are our only Stafford-owning member, care to chime in?)
What Stafford people refer to their dogs as "Pit Bulls"? None that I've heard (except, you might hear one say, "Well, according the BSL, they are considered 'pit bulls'). Do Stafford rescues take in APBTs or ASTs, or anything they call a "pit bull"? Again, not that I can tell (the last time I was on the national rescue site, there were only a few dogs listed - all of them obviously Staffords).
This same forumla can be applied to other breeds oftentimes lumped under the heading "pit bull": American Bulldogs, for instance.
It seems the only people who routinely call non-APBT dogs "pit bulls" are certain Pit Bull people, the media, and drafters of BSL.
Those 'other breed' people don't refer to their dogs as "pit bulls".
I refer to AmStaffs and APBTs as Pit Bulls. And ONLY those two breeds. Why? The APBT is the ONLY breed with the words "pit" and "bull" in its name. AmStaffs can be registered as American PIT BULL Terriers. You cannot register ANY OTHER BREEDS as American Pit Bull Terriers.
What if I said "there is no such thing as a golden, a lab, a cocker, a pyr, a newfie, a rhodie, a dobe" or any other commonly used breed nick name because "there is no breed registerable as a "golden",....etc....). Don't you think that would be a bit silly? Distinctive lines are drawn in the sand with the above breeds: you don't get to call any golden-colored dog with feathers and floppy ears a "Golden" if you want to be taken seriously by other Golden folks). Sure I could call any black and tan dog a Dobe or a Dobe mix, but the Dobe community at large wouldn't believe me correct.
Yet all these lines continue to be blurred when it comes to the nickname of the APBT becausem "there is no breed recognized by the name 'pit bull' ". "Pit bulls" can be any number of breeds." Says you.
The term 'pit bull' has been so bastardized that many people don't even bother trying to confirm if such and such a dog even IS an APBT, or anything close. BUT when a 'pit bull-ish-sorta-maybe-looking-dog-who-could-be-any-one-of-10-breeds' does something wrong, and BSL looms on the horizon, who feels the heat.....the APBT. Not those other breeds.
What if the term "pit bull" was reserved STRICKTLY for APBTs and/or AmStaffs registered as APBTs. What if the name was used correctly? What if breed rescue and advocacy folks STOPPED feeding into the media and BSL mongers and said, NO you've got it wrong, you are misusing a term that applies to ONE BREED? How would that impact the APBT and its current state? Do you think this would be a good or bad thing?
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Post by DiamondTiger on Nov 6, 2008 13:40:07 GMT -5
Ugh... my brother in law has a staffy bull that he calls (called) a Pit Bull. I've told him time and again that his dog is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and he refused to listen... until one day a little more than a month ago, some guy was out at their house to fix the AC and he saw Shammy. He said to my brother in law... "Oh, you've got my dog! I raise Staffordshire Bull Terriers!" So only THEN did my bother in law decide to inform ME that Shamrock is NOT a Pit Bull as he thought, but he's a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and that he'd wondered why Shammy doesn't really look like Karma.
:whu:
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Post by tombaughspits on Nov 6, 2008 13:51:37 GMT -5
There's a noticable difference in Staffy bulls and APBTS.....Staffy bulls are an English breed. Staffy bull  |
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Post by emilys on Nov 9, 2008 22:16:00 GMT -5
well, from my experience, most Stafford (Staffy) say their dogs aren't "pitbulls" because technically they are not, because they are not "american pit bull terriers" (of course by the same def. AmStaffs aren't "pit bulls" either...). But they do acknowledge the same pit fighting background and the relationship between the English breed and their American descendent/cousins.
I think there are legitimately 3 "pit bull" breeds (well, you COULD include the Boston (bull) terrier, which 100 years ago really was just a regional variant of the APBT 100) .. but then we know the public/BSL pushers regard ANY fatheaded shorthaired dog as a "pit bull".
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 10, 2008 8:37:06 GMT -5
well, from my experience, most Stafford (Staffy) say their dogs aren't "pitbulls" because technically they are not, because they are not "american pit bull terriers" (of course by the same def. AmStaffs aren't "pit bulls" either...). Remember, with ASTs it's just semantics........hence the reason I do consider them Pit Bulls. |
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Post by coolhandjean on Nov 10, 2008 11:25:18 GMT -5
Well, in my own mind the only "Pit Bull" is the American Pit Bull Terrier.
But since Joe Schmoe likes to lump a bunch of breeds into the "pit bull" category, I feel it's become more like the terms hound and retreiver. So, I tend to put Amstaffs, APBT, SBT, BT, and Ambullies all into the "pit bull" category, as the main group, then, there are 20+ other breeds, Joe Schmoe likes to throw in the category.
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Post by emilys on Nov 10, 2008 13:17:33 GMT -5
i don't agree that the AmBullies.. or the English bulls should be called "pit bulls". In my opinion, it has to be that collection of breeds "created" in the early-mid 1800's by mixing the traditional bulldog of the time with one or more terrier breeds (depending on which history you believe). The bulldog/Eng bull/Ambull don't have any terrier in them.
We haven't mentioned the "bull terrier". It absolutely WAS a "pit bull terrier" on its creation, just as the Boston bull was. APBTs were shown as bull terriers before the AKC recognized the AST. At that time, the bull terrier didn't have the extreme nose that it has now. The white dogs in the WWI posters are labelled "American Bull Terriers". Bull terriers or American pit bull terriers?
The BT and the Boston have been bred way away from the original function. Are they still "pit bulls"?
It chaps my hide to remember the Boston club sponsoring a trial (maybe they still do) in a location where "pit bulls" are banned...
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 10, 2008 14:13:56 GMT -5
BT's,depending on the history you read, aren't straight bulldog x terrier crosses.
Prior to AKC and UKC standardizing the 'bull n terrier' breeds, a group of dog 'types' (bull n terriers) were often called by numerous names, and weren't necessarily 'purebred'. What won in the pit is what was important, not what had a pure pedigree. There were several breeds that sprang up from these crosses, and once they took root, they all took different (albeit sometimes similar) paths, forming distinct and unique and seperate breeds.
Terminology like 'bull breeds' or 'bull n terriers' used to lump breeds together would be far more correct than labeling everything that came from a similar background as a "pit bull" (again, when only ONE BREED has the words "pit bull" in its name, and only ONE BREED is traditionally called "pit bull" as a nickname by its fanciers).
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Post by emilys on Nov 10, 2008 14:34:22 GMT -5
I agree completely with your post, and I'd LOVE to see that group of 3-6 breeds called "bullandterriers". As you note, certainly more correct than calling them "pit bulls"
But then, is even the APBT a "PIT" bull terrier anymore, for the most part?
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 10, 2008 14:37:41 GMT -5
Emily, where were APBTs shown as "Bull Terriers" before AKC recognized a breed called Staffordshire Terriers? Remember, the UKC already was established and working with a breed called the APBT before the AKC recognized the dogs.
The modern Bull Terrier was created to be a show and companion dog. James Hinks didn't intend to create a pit dog. All he did was take existing bull n terriers and re-work them to create his own breed (I've read histories that claim Dalmatian and Pointer blood was added to this breed).
I really believe that early APBT history is often mistaken for Bull Terrier history because the loosely used terminology can be so confusing in many cases, and people did throw the term 'bull terrier' around a lot.
OH, and the term "bull terrier" was used - and still is used by some - to refer specifically to the APBT. Just look at Frank Rocca's books. He calls the dogs American Bull Terriers, but he is absolutely talking about APBTs.
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 10, 2008 15:03:26 GMT -5
I agree completely with your post, and I'd LOVE to see that group of 3-6 breeds called "bullandterriers". As you note, certainly more correct than calling them "pit bulls" But then, is even the APBT a "PIT" bull terrier anymore, for the most part? Nope, it's not, and ya know what? I hate the breed's name. I really wish we could have gotten the official name of American Bull Terrier....... |
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Post by emilys on Nov 10, 2008 23:50:59 GMT -5
Emily, where were APBTs shown as "Bull Terriers" before AKC recognized a breed called Staffordshire Terriers? . in AKC shows. This was when the BT club started accepting colored dogs (before then only white BTs were allowed). Late 1920's/early 1930's I believe |
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Post by emilys on Nov 10, 2008 23:52:44 GMT -5
I agree completely with your post, and I'd LOVE to see that group of 3-6 breeds called "bullandterriers". As you note, certainly more correct than calling them "pit bulls" But then, is even the APBT a "PIT" bull terrier anymore, for the most part? you know about the effort by Will Judy (editor of Dog World) to promote "Yankee terrier"? I have an early 1930's book where the breed is actually named that. Nope, it's not, and ya know what? I hate the breed's name. I really wish we could have gotten the official name of American Bull Terrier....... |
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 11, 2008 8:06:54 GMT -5
Emily, where were APBTs shown as "Bull Terriers" before AKC recognized a breed called Staffordshire Terriers? . in AKC shows. This was when the BT club started accepting colored dogs (before then only white BTs were allowed). Late 1920's/early 1930's I believe But those weren't APBTs, those were Hinks' Bull Terriers  Bull Terriers & APBTs = Not the same thing, even early on. |
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Post by emilys on Nov 11, 2008 11:07:28 GMT -5
in AKC shows. This was when the BT club started accepting colored dogs (before then only white BTs were allowed). Late 1920's/early 1930's I believe But those weren't APBTs, those were Hinks' Bull Terriers Bull Terriers & APBTs = Not the same thing, even early on. no, they were APBTs. Carla once gave me some names of the dogs, as I recall. Where do you think the color came from in the colored BTs anyway? From Dalmations and pointers? Even you could not tell the difference between some of the early BTs and the APBTs. Why do "we" claim the white WWI poster "American Bull Terrier" as an APBT though it has a narrow head that looks far more like a BT than an APBT? The line between the breeds is not so clear cut |
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 11, 2008 11:53:36 GMT -5
I don't claim the WWI poster, FYI, because IMO that is a BT, not an APBT. I also do not claim the term "Nanny Dog" as that was a reference to the SBT NOT the APBT. I also do not claim Stubby who looks far more like a Boston-type dog than an APBT.
The BT was already established when they added in brindle SBT/APBTs (or bull n terriers). The outcrosses are what presumably were shown; is that what you are referring to?
I am just not sure what you are reading/seeing that's making you believe they took APBTs and started showing them in AKC as BTs. Not a challenge, I really am just confused. I cannot tell you how much I have read/looked at in terms of the history of these dogs and I have never heard anything laid out like this before.
As I said, I think BT history and APBT history gets mixed up because the terms bull-and-terrier and bull terrier and American bull terrier were thrown around a lot, and could mean different things. There weren't any clear lines drawn in the sand, and as I said above, breeders were more concerned about performance and didn't care so much about a 'pure breed'. There is kind of a mish mosh before kennel clubs and breed standards. And where I start making clear distinctions as to what is an APBT or what is not is at the official kennel club regcognition of these various breeds. And I move forward from there.
BTs have a VERY clear cut, clean history. Sure they developed from bull n terriers and share ancestry with APBTs, but they really travelled a distinct and seperate route, especially after AKC recognition. They were created by one guy, with a distinct vision of what he wanted.
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Post by bubsy on Nov 11, 2008 18:34:53 GMT -5
Interesting stuff! I'm new to the breed...so I guess I've got to go read up on some breed history :-)
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 11, 2008 20:48:13 GMT -5
I just wanted to add that the colored BT's were allowed into the AKC in 1936, the same year that the APBT was recognized as the "Staffordshire Terrier" in the AKC.
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I look forward to learning much here