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Post by heartless on Jan 16, 2015 8:15:22 GMT -5
We recently adopted Diamond from our local no kill shelter - she had been there since August 2014 - she is a bit over 1 yr old, and very smart - but has a bit of an issue. The shelter told us that she was "dog aggressive" at the start - meaning she will be an only dog in the household, which is fine. They also seemed to think that she would go after cats as well....
The issue: She is very reactive to her own reflection in pretty much anything she can see herself in - windows after dark, entertainment center cabinet doors, even the glass front on the electric fireplace (turning it on had no effect on her reactivity - she could still see herself!). She becomes extremely focused on the reflection - barking, hair on the back raised, body stiff/tense - voice has zero effect on her, we have had to physically move her away, put her in her crate and cover the offending object before letting her back out.
We live in a 100+ yr old house, the windows are tall and only about 2 ft off the floor - very easy for her to see herself in...
For an immediate fix, we have covered anything that she has reacted to - all but one window in the kitchen that is behind a bakers rack (would be a real chore to get to it). She has reacted to that one several times, but it seems to be diminishing with time. The first time it happened, I had to physically move her away, and not let her go back to it for a while. Each time she does go back, her reaction is less involved - to the point now that if I catch her looking, I can call her away and she will respond, albeit a bit reluctantly - this gives me hope.
Anyway, looking for ideas on how to reduce this issue further and hopefully be able to eventually remove the coverings over various things - one item at a time as we progress. We know that she will never be completely "cured", and that is ok, but it would be nice to have the electric fireplace/heater back! LOL
I have looked thru the trainer guide/recommendations - the nearest to us is more than an hour away and the cost for a one on one consult and several training sessions is a bit prohibitive. We would like to try working on this ourselves first. If it proves to be too much for us to handle then we will contact the trainer, but we would still like to try. We have both had many dogs over the years and fully believe in positive training - causing pain and/or fear is not the way to do things!
now, where did I put those clickers....?
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Post by suziriot on Jan 16, 2015 19:26:40 GMT -5
Poor Diamond! I know how stressful and worrisome it can be to have a highly reactive and/or anxious dog. Certain triggers can send them into a seemingly uncontrollable spiral, and they may even harm themselves. It's tough to watch and not know how to help. I'm so glad to hear that you want to use only positive training techniques! There are many threads in the behavior & training section of the forum that would be helpful to your situation. Several of us have dealt with similar issues with our dogs. I think BAT Behavior Adjustment Training is a good place to start. A great book that I know has been mentioned in other threads is Behavior Adjustment Training: BAT for Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs by Grisha Stewart. BAT is all about helping the dog find alternative behaviors and reactions that produce greater rewards than the problem behavior. It's available on Amazon or from Whole Dog Journal. Hope that's a start for you. Some of the training experts on the forum may have some better suggestions and advice.  |
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Post by heartless on Jan 16, 2015 22:29:34 GMT -5
Thank you Suzi, I have been reading thru some of the other threads for information. I am really looking for the beginning "baby steps" - where to even start with this issue. Tonight she saw herself, and reacted to her reflection in the side of a plastic storage container I had out for storing old files in! (cleaning out the filing cabinet...)  The book you recommended does sound interesting, as do a couple of others "frequently bought together" thing on amazon... anyone have any comments about either of these... "Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out: Training the Crazy Dog from Over the Top to Under Control", by Laura VanArendonk Baugh or "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas especially interested in comments about the first one... |
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Post by suziriot on Jan 16, 2015 23:24:54 GMT -5
Oh yeah, definitely get On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals. It's a great introduction to reading and understanding what your dog is communicating, and what you are (usually unknowingly) communicating to your dog. When I was more active in rescue volunteering, I always recommended it to fosters and adopters. It's very good for "beginners" and a good foundation for moving forward with BAT or other positive conditioning/training.
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Post by heartless on Jan 17, 2015 22:06:16 GMT -5
sounds good, thanks Suzi think I am gonna get the other one, too, and "At the Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell for good measure... |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 19, 2015 12:21:17 GMT -5
I second Suzi's recommendation for the BAT book - it is specifically meant to help dogs with reactivity and breaks things down in tiny steps.
What I would suggest to start with is to keep things covered up for now as you have been, and set up training scenarios where you have a very slightly reflective item out, in the distance (like out in the yard? She's on one side, the item is on the other). Click and treat as you slowly walk her towards the item. As SOON as you see she notices it (this is where you need to be very watchful, as you need to react to the slightest sign she notices it, even just an ear flick, lip lick, head turn), STOP. Click treat when she offers one of those signs, then move her away from the item.
The moving away is the real reward, so it's ok if she is too upset to actually take the treat (if she IS, it may be that she was too close to the item to start with). But again, like I said, the real reward is getting to move away from the 'scary' thing that is setting her off.
Work like this with her and as you have success at one distance, begin to work at closer distances. Success with one item, means graduate to a new item.
It is a good sign that she seems to desensitize on her own but if possible, you want to work on keeping her from triggering and keep her stress level down as you work her through this. Flooding (over-exposing her) is something to avoid, even if it could eventually work.
OK, that's to start with.
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Post by heartless on Jan 19, 2015 17:03:26 GMT -5
Thanks Mary - exactly the kind of stuff I am looking for! as for working outside? ummm, no - not for a few months yet! (Winter in Northern Wisconsin = not fit for man, woman, nor beast outside!) but that is ok, gives us time to work on our manners & basic commands. Come? more like Keep Away! LOL but she is getting there, slowly... sit, wait, and down were a piece of cake for her. even shake was pretty easy (i think someone else got her started on that one cause she offered a paw long before we ever asked for it) but we have a long ways to go for a reliable "come" anyway, I have ordered a total of 5 books: Behavior Adjustment Training: BAT for Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs by Grisha Stewart On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs by Patricia B. McConnell Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out: Training the Crazy Dog from Over the Top to Under Control by Laura VanArendonk Baugh How to be the Leader of the Pack...And have Your Dog Love You For It. by Patricia B. McConnell Ph.D. I got "Fired up" as a kindle version as well and have been reading like crazy. The methods in "Fired up" are very similar to what you have suggested, Mary, gradual reintroduction, clicker & treats. The author breaks things down into very small steps (splitting) and says to only work for a minute or two at a time - she says working for too long at a time sets the dog up for frustration and, ultimately, failure - never mind the owner/trainer getting frustrated. Interesting reading for sure Kind of waiting for the rest of the books to be delivered to do some more reading and compare notes between methods. I am one of those that likes to take in a lot of good information from several sources, pull out what I feel are the best parts of each and kind of blend them into one package that works for me, and hopefully my dog... Will keep you all posted with how things go |
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Post by suziriot on Jan 19, 2015 19:34:43 GMT -5
Sounds like you're off to a great start with Diamond's training. She's quite lucky to have been adopted by a family so eager and willing to work on her behavior issues in such a positive way!
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Post by heartless on Jan 19, 2015 21:50:29 GMT -5
Thanks Suzi, we do try.
We have both had many dogs over the years and both dislike brute force type stuff. some of that stuff is bordering animal cruelty! Makes me want to do to them what they are doing to the poor animal!
Diamond is, without a doubt, quite smart and quick to grasp what we are after. The only problem with her is she tends to get over-exuberant sometimes - i know it is time to quit when that happens.
While I am waiting on the books to arrive, anyone have any suggestions for discouraging excessive mouthiness?
I know she isnt trying to be mean, but she gets excited during playtime and the mouth gets a little out of hand. pretty obvious she is still very much a puppy... LOL
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Post by heartless on Jan 21, 2015 13:34:39 GMT -5
Well, books have been shipped, expected delivery sometime next week... in the mean time... One of Di's favorite games at playtime is tug-of-war. She loves to tug on just about anything - rope toy, goughnut, ball - doesnt matter she will bring it to you and want to play tug-of-war. We had gotten a 4 knot rope toy when she first came home with us - what is left of it is on the left in the following pic, along with a new 5 knot one to take its place when the old one is finally destroyed...(and dont worry, she is not allowed to have this unsupervised!)  it usually during these games of tug that the mouth gets a little out of hand, and fingers get caught in an enthusiastic grab at the toy... backing up a little, I had taught her to sit before I would toss/roll her ball (tennis ball) for her to chase (another much liked game for indoors) to prevent injuries (to us) from lunging & grabbing at so small a targetwith those (very) sharp teeth. so the last few days, I have been working on trying to get her to sit if she looses her grip on the rope toy. If she looses her grip and makes a grab for it right away (usually in the direction of the hand holding it, thus getting the teeth on skin), I "ahh!" sharply, drop it, walk away and go sit down somewhere else. I wish you all could've seen her face the first time I did this! Priceless! She got this really stunned look, like "what just happened?", then in a flash she got that comical, head cocked to one side, quizzical look - "was it something I did?", then she came over to me all concerned and sorry, nuzzling for some petting/loving (which, of course, she got). If she looses her grip and sits, she gets an immediate "Good Girl!" and a toss of the toy (simultaniously) so she can decide where she wants to grab it at without fingers being in harms way, then bring it back and we continue playing. If she looses her grip, doesnt grab/lunge for it, but doesnt sit either, I just hold it close to me until she figures out that she needs to sit to get the toy*. As soon as she does, she gets the "GG!" and toy toss. It hasnt taken her long to figure out that the quicker her butt goes down, the quicker she gets that toy! we arent 100% yet, but she is getting much better at it, and my hands are showing fewer knicks & scratches for it! She is soo smart! *To qualify this - the couple of times that she tried making a grab for the toy while I was holding it close, she got a sharp "Ahh!" and the toy got put away. Not what she wanted at all. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 23, 2015 9:19:41 GMT -5
Thanks Suzi, we do try. We have both had many dogs over the years and both dislike brute force type stuff. some of that stuff is bordering animal cruelty! Makes me want to do to them what they are doing to the poor animal! Diamond is, without a doubt, quite smart and quick to grasp what we are after. The only problem with her is she tends to get over-exuberant sometimes - i know it is time to quit when that happens. While I am waiting on the books to arrive, anyone have any suggestions for discouraging excessive mouthiness? I know she isnt trying to be mean, but she gets excited during playtime and the mouth gets a little out of hand. pretty obvious she is still very much a puppy... LOL Excessive mouthiness should get better as she continues to relax and adjust to her home, and as you progress in training. A lot of times, mouthiness is a dog's inability to handle stress, or, if it is happening during playtime, it could be that she is getting too amped up and you need to tone down the play. Time outs for mouthiness during play is the way to go. Let her know she did the wrong thing by using a "no reward marker" - I use "uh uh!" and then immediately stop the play/take the toys and leave. If she is consistently getting too mouthy during a specific game, cut out that game or at least tone it WAY down. You can also work separately on teaching her to be ok with hands and body parts near her face without nipping. If you are using a clicker, try this: 1) Click/treat for a hand near her face with no nipping (closed fist). 2) Same as above with open hand. 3) Same as above while wiggling your fingers. 4) Progress with clicking/treating for not nipping as she is having success at each step. If she has an opps and uses her mouth, it just means you are progressing too fast. 5) Continue along these lines varying the movement of your body, using different body parts, also objects like clothing/gloves/etc. Just a quick run down, if you need clarification, let me know. |
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Post by heartless on Jan 23, 2015 22:40:46 GMT -5
The mouthiness is pretty much only when she is amped up during, or wanting to, play. she will go for our feet if we are outside trying to walk and she is too worked up (not enough exercise? probably...i really hate winter...)
"normal", calm interactions there is no nipping/mouthiness, and she does like to have her cheeks rubbed gently.
She is pretty good around the mouth actually - when she isnt over-stimulated.
She was chewing on her Orbee ball this evening and inadvertently got an electrical cord mixed in - she got zapped, poor thing.
After she calmed down a little (a couple mins) she was fine with us checking her mouth for any obvious signs of injury - no snapping, no growling, nothing - no problems at all, really.
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Post by fureverywhere on Jan 24, 2015 21:40:13 GMT -5
You sure have a gorgeous pup there! You'll find lots of good advice here. I wish I had some to offer...I can tell you "Persistence is a Virtue" and keep your sense of humor. We have two dogs, Callie is a happy, well adjusted AmBull. Sophie our girl has been a basket case from day one. She made progress for several years but as she's grown grayer she's regressed. For instance the other night we were walking next to a store. Someone dropped a box on the loading dock. She got as far as the sidewalk before freezing into a full blown panic attack. Fortunate we could get a ride home but patience, time and applauding the small victories. Something Sophie adores is chasing sticks and balls, fun for her and it lets her run off some of that nervous energy...if you have a yard or a park with an empty secure tennis court give it a try one day.
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Post by heartless on Jan 25, 2015 11:58:35 GMT -5
Thank you fureverywhere.
we have 2 acres of yard, with a 40 ft x 80 fenced "playpen" for her to run freely in. Living in the country there are just too many temptations around to allow free roaming in the rest of the yard.
We also have a cable run (around 90 ft) for the everyday "go out an potty" times...
the issue here is the weather - often too cold to spend much more than a couple of minutes outside at a time, so we have to try to come up with other ways of giving her some exercise.
When the weather is cooperative enough (over 28 F, and little wind), we do try to get her out to the playpen for a good run - chasing balls, or what have you.
Well, my books came Saturday! yay! been busy reading up. I found "On Talking Terms with Dogs" to be utterly fascinating! the signs have always been there, we just didnt know how to read them very well!
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2015 10:29:02 GMT -5
Learning about calming signals changed everything for me with dogs, glad you are enjoying it so far!
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Post by heartless on Jan 26, 2015 11:32:32 GMT -5
Good morning, Mary.
Yes, "Calming Signals" was indeed a real eye opener! and actually putting some of aspects into practice has become an interesting exercise for me - like tuning my side/back to her when she is jumping around excitedly - she almost instantly calms down to a more appropriate level (within a few seconds) - fascinating how well it works!
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 26, 2015 23:39:01 GMT -5
Yup, it's amazing what happens when you start to speak dog. Looking forward to seeing how things progress with your pretty girl. If you need anything, let me know!
Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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I look forward to learning much here