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Post by lpyrbby on Dec 14, 2008 8:40:59 GMT -5
We just recently had a question sent to us through Myspace and wanted to pick your brains.
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Hi, I have 2 pit mixes, one of which is having a hard time w/ his fear & aggression towards strangers $ other dogs. His name is Paxton, he's 1.5 yrs old. We got him from the SPCA when he was about 3 months old. He lives w/ our other dog Roxy (12 yrs old, she's the dominant one), My husband & I, my son who is 5 & my daughter who is 8 months old. He is wonderfull & obediant INSIDE, but the minute we walk out the door, he's ready to go. His hair stands up, he lunges, shows teeth, barks, growls, kicks back dirt (like a bull about to charge). He has leash & territorial agression as well as anxiety. He pulls on a halti & pronged choke chain. He's truely fearful of everything. We've tried socializing him (he started acting like this @ around 6 months & it's continually gotten worse). Professional training has not help, it's actually made him worse. He now has to be crated when we leave b/c he's started becoming destructive. We are really getting worried for the safety of other people & animals, he's almost 90 lbs & could inflict some serious damage. Also, this week, he's started guarding us from our other dog.Prozac has not helped him & now he's on Clomipramine (Clomicalm). We are at a loss. We love him so much, but the trainer & vets are keep asking us "what's his quality of life?"~ a nice way of suggesting euthanasia. We are prepared to make that decision, but don't want to leave any stone unturned. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. He is our heart! Please forward to any other pittie people that could help as well. Thanks soooo much!!!
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Our initial reaction is to have the dog eval'd by a behaviorist, not a "trainer" or a veterinarian.
Thoughts?
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Post by lpyrbby on Dec 14, 2008 9:02:53 GMT -5
Ack! Sorry! I was on the phone with Kat and was too impatient to post to complete my/our thoughts. Here's the reply I just sent her: Hey there!
Sorry for the delay in replying to your message. We've been super busy recently.
We need to know a few more things to get a better idea of the situation and what might be going on.
First, what training methods have you used? Also, when he reacts negatively outdoors, what are you and your family's responses to his behavior? How are you currently trying to correct it? Do you attempt to comfort him when he reacts, divert his attention, ignore it? How much physical and mental exercise is he getting each day? What trainers have you sought help from with these behaviors?
As much as we love our veterinarians, we don't ask them for training advice because...well, they specialize in medicine and not in dog behavior. How long has he been on the Clomicalm? You might not see results from it right away.
Does he react to certain things outside like bikes, people, trash cans, etc? Or is it just BEING outside with all the stimuli that gets a reaction from him?
Sorry for asking so many questions but we can't give you ideas right now on what *might* be going on to offer some help without knowing more. Meeting him in person and witnessing his reactions would be the absolute best thing at this point but we aren't sure when one of us might be able to do that. We'd like to offer some ideas in the mean time though so you know that every resource has been exhausted.
Let us know everything that you can and we'll do our absolute best
Thanks for contacting us! -AliciaI would like to go ahead and add in here that this message came from a foster home for one of the other PB rescues in our area. Is it a troll? Who knows. It sounds like a real issue and we want to handle it appropriately. The knowledge base on this forum is fantastic too so we don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot thinking we "know it all" when you guys might have a different take on this situation and can leave us with more to think about here.
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Post by mcgregor on Dec 14, 2008 9:30:36 GMT -5
It seems to me that paxton needs to be aqcauinted with the subjects that make him belligrent......for example my yogi was always barking and growling at the horses in the corrals we passed as I took him for a ride often.....while he was growing up , he gradually relaxed his attidude towards them and currently he now just calmly looks at them.....Paxton needs to be socialized with everyday familiar things...... Keep paxton off the streets untill he learns to except the things that make him afraid.....it will be difficult to walk the dog in the state he is in, if he bites someone,there would be dire consequences for the dog and yourself..... fear towards other dogs is dog aggression on paxtons part....
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Post by lpyrbby on Dec 14, 2008 10:03:46 GMT -5
New response: Hi, He goes to *name removed*. He already knows basic commands, we just wanted to socialize him more. He was socialized when he was a puppy, we took him everywhere with us. The @ about 6 months, things started changing. When he reacts outside, we firmly say "come" & walk away from whatever is there. We don't yell, jerk, sweet-talk him, etc. If he sees people we say "good people" or a dog "it's a dog, good dog" & offer a treat. He won't eat ANYTHING outside. He usually loves Zuke's chicken training treats, I've even gone as far as offering chunks of chicken breast, bacon, & pieces of hamburger- but if he's "in the zone", he could care less. We usually talk him daily for 1.5 mile walks around our entire neighborhood. We haven't been able to for a few weeks, since he's become increasingly aggressive, which I know is contributing to the problem. I have 2 small children & he thrashes around so I need 2 people to walk him- me to walk him & someone else to push the stroller & hold my son's hand. We considered buying a treadmill for him, but we think he would be scared of it. He will pretty much react to anything- people, dogs, trashcans, a leaf, the wind, a soda can, etc. He does not react to cars or people on bikes, go figure:) He has been to the dog park a few times. He was EXTREMELY leash aggressive when we walk in, he usually calms down within 15min & then let off the leash to go play. My mom has a fenced in backyard & he goes over there @ least once a week to play w/ her 3 dogs for a few hours. We also move our furnature around in the evening & let him play fetch inside to burn energy. He has been on the Clomicalm for about a week, he was on 40 mg of Prozac for several weeks. We have been seeing *name removed*~she said we should be seeing some sort of response from the Clomipramine within 2 weeks b/c of the high dose that he's on- 2 50mg caps twice a day. His thyroid was tested & he had another complete physical last week. The trainer & vet have asked me "what's his quality of life?", so I know this is bad. He is happy inside, but scared & reactive towards everything outside. He is WONDERFUL w/ my children, a true nanny dog. He also knows basic commands, he was easy to house train. He was even good w/ the 2 foster kittens I had for a month, yeah- a pit without a prey drive for cats We'd like for our neighbors to come within a few yards of him & toss him treats to associate strangers w/ yummy food, but he growls & lunges @ them so much, I'm pretty sure they hates us I also bought a muzzle for him to try to get some people to come over without the chance of getting bitten (normally he gets crated when we have guests). Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thank you & Merry Christmas!
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Post by lpyrbby on Dec 14, 2008 18:03:40 GMT -5
My reply, hours later. Am I missing anything? Okie, we're going to do a bit more research to try to give you multiple ideas on what you might be able to do.
First, can you think of ANYTHING that might have happened to him while he was around 6 months old that could have been traumatic to him? A new move? New freedoms? New household addition?
Do you practice Nothing In Life Is Free with him? www.k9deb.com/nilif
Another thing a lot of people have trouble understanding at first but is a very good tool is Bridge and Target training. It's similar to clicker training but can provide a TON more information to the dog to help them "get it."
Essentially, B&T is almost like a game of "hot and cold" with your dog because of the extra information you are providing them. There are two main things you have to remember the names of as far as "definitions" go to better understand explanations. There the IB or Intermediate Bridge and the TB which is the Terminal Bridge. When doing the B&T, the TB is the "Yes you did it!" and the IB is the, "almost there almost there keep going!" The "bridges" are merely sounds. A hard sound is best. We actually prefer to use the "g" sound but others prefer "x" as it's not likely to be something said often.
Many people have used this form of training to teach their dog body parts, objects, people etc. There have actually been people who've been able to successfully convey the message to their dog of a coming storm by naming thunder, rain, wind, etc. The idea behind doing these sorts of things is that with fearful dogs, they become a bit more confident when they actually understand what something is.
B&T can be a lot for people to grasp but I was able to get my hands on some "training" materials to people who are interested in learning/teaching it. If you are interested, send me an email at ad@nhpbr.org so I can send the docs to you
You do have a tough dog to work with from the general sounds of it. Things that you have to consider is how much time are you willing and able to put forth with him to try to work with him? Realistically because it's not going to be something that you will see a change in immediately. I'm sure you know that but it needs to be said again
My recommendations right now are to start a strict Nothing In Life is Free policy since you mentioned he was guarding people. Nip that ASAP. NILIF will help with that. There's also some other good things to read too on the k9deb site I linked you to previously so please read through more of that.
Does Paxton know the "Watch Me" command? If not, this is something you'll want to start teaching in the house. www.kidsanddogs.bravepages.com/watch.html There's a basic link on teaching "Watch Me." Obviously, this is something you will do in the house first. Once he gets the gist of this command and has it down pat, you'll want to start working on it in baby steps outside the house. First at the door. Then maybe at the sidewalk to the driveway. At the garage door, the back door, the driveway itself, the street and so on and so forth. A lot of this obviously is going to depend on him.
What's his anxiety level like if you remove him from a situation where he's in the "zone" to back indoors? Does he calm down relatively quickly or is he back at windows and doors? If he calms down back in the house, maybe try to use that as a reward with the "Watch Me" command initially.
There's a few different ways to try to go about handling this situation but without seeing first hand and checking what may work and won't work, the advice is only so good. Also, we aren't dog trainers so please take this advice for what it's worth. You know your dog better than we do and what will and won't work for him. I sincerely wish there was a certified behaviorist in the area here as I would *highly* recommend them for this situation.
I think the B&T work will help with him too so please do shoot me an email if you would like to see those instructions. I'm going to work on getting some more ideas for you in the mean time.
Have you tried getting in touch with *name removed*? He comes out for free consultations and has been in business for a while. He might have some additional resources for you as well.
Let me know if you have more questions and I'll let you know if I can drum up some other ideas
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Post by maryellen on Dec 14, 2008 19:43:09 GMT -5
tell them to get a thyroid test done, a full blood panel.. just to rule out any medical issues. it honestly sounds like poor genetics.. they either have to keep him safe and NEVER take him outside again for as long as he lives and crate him when people come over, or euth him. some drugs make dogs worse, some dont. what quality of life will he have doped up on drugs to keep him mellow?
i have a fear aggressive GSD living with me. she breaks down outside, but is fine inside, and she is fine with people in my house. i have been keeping her inside for the past 5 years, only trips are to the vets, and the woods behind my house. i recently started taking her to a local park when no one is there for walks. she gets no meds as they made her worse. her issue is crappy BYB genetics ..
some dogs are just genetically screwed.. these people have to think long and hard about what to do with this dog, and his quality of life as well.
they can also get the book from amazon.com called Help for your fearful dog by nicole wilde. while it might help in the meantime, long term thinking is going to have to be seriously considered. no dog should have to live in a fear zone its entire life.
this part right here says alot.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Dec 15, 2008 9:15:22 GMT -5
They mentioned they did a thyroid test but you may also tell them that the results can be sent to Dr. Jean Dodds who will look at it from a behavioral aspect and will do this for free.
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Post by RealPitBull on Dec 15, 2008 9:24:32 GMT -5
What is this dog mixed with? My bet would be some kind of guarding breed. I am also skeptical about what they say regarding how they are handling the dog. If the dog is in a prong collar, he is getting corrected. The behavior she is describing sounds like the typical escalation of a fear aggressive dog that is being trained with aversives.
The FIRST thing I would suggest this family do is see a veterinary behaviorist. Why are they expecting 2 weeks on Clomicalm to do anything - they need to be under the guidance of someone who understands behav mod drugs. It can take a month or more for the drug to work, but I honestly do not think Clomicalm is going to help in this situation, anyway.
What does 'thyroid test' mean? A typical thyroid test done at a vet's office can miss important things. Have them consider Jean Dodd's HemoPet for the blood workup.
Something is seriously going on with this dog, and I just don't think the trainer or the vet they are using is giving them the right advice. Was the dog living in a bubble into he hit 6 months? Behavior doesn't just change so drastically like this. So either there is a health issue at play, or the dog has been steadily escalating since small puppyhood and has been handled very poorly. Or maybe a combo of all these things.
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Post by maryellen on Dec 15, 2008 9:35:43 GMT -5
thyroid test is the one that is done for all 4 , T4 etc, i had Dr Dodd read rubys results for free as well.
the owners state the pup showed the behaviors at 6 months and its been escalating... it could also be owner mismanagement as well..
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Post by maryellen on Dec 15, 2008 9:36:24 GMT -5
oh yeah, is this dog INTACT????
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Post by lpyrbby on Dec 15, 2008 10:31:15 GMT -5
Can someone give me the info for the Dr. Dodd? The dog doesn't appear to be mixed with a guarding breed. I'm yoinking the pic from Myspace so I dunno if it'll show up. Here's one of her last replies: We can't think of anything that could have happened to him @ 6 months old. I found out I was pregnant a week after we adopted him though (he was 3 months old), we started crate training @ 4 months old, we didn't move either. My daughter was born in April & he adjusted just fine. We just got back from playing @ my mom's house. He greeted her guests happily & was running around in the backyard w/ the kids. He wasn't even aggressive when I put him on his leash to walk him to the car. I'll look into your suggestions & I really appreciate them. He instantly calms down after we come inside, sometimes he drags me back inside. He knows "watch me" but can't perform outside or w/ the leash on (he's anticipating going outside eventhough we make him wear his leash inside too-trying to desensitize him w/ no luck. We make him sit or laydown for anything. I also was hand feeding him for a while & will start doing it again. I tried finding behavioralists but my google search cam up w/ PetSmart puppy classes, haha- what a joke! I can't even attempt to do anything w/*name removed* right now, with x-mas around the corner & the cost of all his new medication, I'm broke But I will look into it when I can afford it. I would LOVE those instructions so I'm e-mailing you right now. Thank you sooooooooooooooooo much for your help And my reply: Hey there I went ahead and copied the last message from Myspace so I can respond to it here. It's a lot faster getting me through email than there lol!
I went ahead and attached the docs for you Read the document on "Bridges" first, then move to the one on Targets.
With *name removed*, he does a free consultation so he may be able to give you ideas on what training regime he could set up with him or give you ideas of other people to call if he can't help. A No-Obligation visit can give you lots of ideas
With the leash, is he wearing it inside *all* the time? You might try that. Do you make him sit before going out the door and after coming back in? It helps to teach him some self control. Also, if he doesn't know it, once he's sitting every time before going outside, increase the work for him. Instead of him "darting" out the door, make him remain seated until you release him. This helps to strengthen their ability to control themselves which he may need more of.
Also, when he acts out, try ignoring him completely. I don't recommend walking him yet at this point either. Very small baby steps as much as possible. It's always better to take longer with something he knows and reinforce positive behavior then to try to rush things and have him "fail" because it's too much for him or he doesn't understand.
Another thing you might try with the leash thing since he's anticipating going outside is to practice "leaving." This is recommended for people with dogs who have separation anxiety. The idea behind it is to accustom the dog to their human leaving without it being a big deal. The way it would work in your situation is that it would signify that just because the leash is on and someone goes to the door doesn't mean we're going outside. The way it works is with small confidence building steps as well. Ignore him. Walk around, prepare to "leave" then sit down. Ignore him still. give it about 15 minutes. Walk around again, sit down again. Another 15 minutes goes by and do it again. The next baby step forward would be to prepare to "leave" again. But this time, open the door, close it and go sit back down. Another 15 minutes and repeat. The next step would be to prepare to leave but this time add briefly stepping outside then RIGHT back indoors. Rinse and repeat. This is another thing that will take some time too since he will definitely need to go out at some point between these lessons, but he'll start to get it if you can work with him on these things.
Read the B&T stuff and let me know if you have questions about it and we'll go from there. Still looking for some other ideas The Charleston area here has VERY little by way of behaviorists of any sort. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any in the state. Also, Mary, I think they've since quit using the prong collar. Obviously this is something that they need to have someone with experience see first hand. The trainer she has been using is more for obedience. The other trainer I recommended does obedience training too and has been doing it for a LONG time, but I'm not certain he has experience with behavior modification. ME, I forgot to ask if the dog is intact. I don't think he is but I can't answer that 100%.
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Post by maryellen on Dec 15, 2008 11:22:29 GMT -5
ok, what type of behavior does he do when he sees people? is it really aggressive behavior or the typical omgomgomgpeopleletsgoseepeoplekisspeopleomgomg type of reaction? how can he be fine one minute and not the next? i am now starting to wonder if its just typical teenager dog behavior at this age, and the owners are not giving him enough exercise and training and he is just being a snotty brat ..... and some dogs the DA shows at this age, so its possible he is just being NORMAL....
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Post by bubsy on Dec 15, 2008 17:57:30 GMT -5
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