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Mean
Dec 29, 2008 12:53:53 GMT -5
Post by Dan on Dec 29, 2008 12:53:53 GMT -5
I have a 1 yr pit female, with us she is a big baby, but if any one come in to the house she goes nuts, she becomes so mean trys to bit and wont clam down. I try ever think to stop her or take her mind off the person comeing in, but all she want to do is attack.
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Mean
Dec 29, 2008 14:11:27 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Dec 29, 2008 14:11:27 GMT -5
Well, first thing I want you to do is get rid of this idea that your dog is 'mean' - meanness is a human thing; dogs are aggressive because they are afraid and fear a perceived threat. The next thing I want you to do is realize that this is extremely dangerous behavior and you MUST immediately take the following actions: 1) Segregate your dog. If you have someone coming over, the dog goes in a crate or seperate/closed room BEFORE you let the person in the door. 2) Consider hiring a qualified behaviorist/trainer - I can help you find one. But for the sort of behavior you are describing, you really need the help of someone who can come in your home and properly assess your dog and then offer suggestions for helping you deal with this problem. Having said that, we might be able to help you at least a bit before you hire a trainer, if you can answer the following questions.... How long has this behavior been going on? Has your dog ever bit anyone? If yes, who did the dog bite and how severe was the bite? How long have you had this dog? Has she undergone any training? How does your dog react to people outside the home? Can you describe the behavior in more detail? What have you done to try to fix this problem? What do you do when your dog behaves aggressively? Also, I'd appreciate it if you could post an introduction on the new members board, so we all have an idea of who we are chatting with
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snipe
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Mean
Jan 21, 2009 16:29:04 GMT -5
Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 16:29:04 GMT -5
let me play devil's advocate for a moment. do you say that your dogs love you? or do they simply hang around because you are the only people they associate with food, play, exercise, a place to sleep etc. my guess, is that you do say they love you. so then could a dog be mean or hate just as easily? i would now like to quote from a book called Merle's door,
"However, Konrad Lorenz, who won the nobel peace prize in 1973 for his work on the organization of social behavior in animals, often spoke of his Grey Geese "falling in love." Occasionally, his colleagues took him for being anthropomorphic, he would reply, "it is an accurate term for a real phenomenon for which there is no other name. I consider the term appropriate of any species, if that is in fact what they do."
Now replace "falling in love" with "being mean", and re-read. how then could you not say that the dog possesses hate and is in turn acting that emotion through the physical process of being mean?
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Mean
Jan 21, 2009 16:49:05 GMT -5
Post by mcgregor on Jan 21, 2009 16:49:05 GMT -5
There are no mean dogs, there are misdirected aggressive dogs...I believe your dog to be [glow=red,2,300]territorial aggressive[/glow]......He is protecting your home and yourself.....he needs to be socialized with lots of training..... This behavior could get himself and you in trouble.... keep the dog in check and crate or put him in another room when company arrives....
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snipe
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Mean
Jan 21, 2009 17:01:46 GMT -5
Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 17:01:46 GMT -5
ok so you say that perhaps the capacity to be mean is not within you dogs emotional spectrum. but would you say your dog loves, is anxious, expresses happiness, is sad, sulky, contemplative, and maybe even creative? if all those emotions then why not hate? perhaps in this instance he is guarding his turf, but there must certainly be a dog who simply, dislikes.
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Mean
Jan 21, 2009 21:20:21 GMT -5
Post by tank on Jan 21, 2009 21:20:21 GMT -5
I am no trainer, so I would take Mary's advice over mine but my dog has developed the same type of problem. Something as simple as putting a basket of your dogs favorite toys by the door or some treats for guests to give your dog when they come in the house was a very good idea that a trainer friend of mine told me to do and it has been working very well. That way the dog associates people coming over with a good pleasant treat that they only get when there is company. She probably doesn't want to "attack" but is very scared about people coming in the house and being protective of the people she loves that are inside.
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snipe
I Love RPBF!
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Mean
Jan 21, 2009 21:39:46 GMT -5
Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 21:39:46 GMT -5
I am no trainer, so I would take Mary's advice over mine but my dog has developed the same type of problem. Something as simple as putting a basket of your dogs favorite toys by the door or some treats for guests to give your dog when they come in the house was a very good idea that a trainer friend of mine told me to do and it has been working very well. That way the dog associates people coming over with a good pleasant treat that they only get when there is company. She probably doesn't want to "attack" but is very scared about people coming in the house and being protective of the people she loves that are inside. ya agreed i wanted to have my guests do this but give her a sit command so she learns better door manners
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Mean
Jan 22, 2009 8:38:39 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 22, 2009 8:38:39 GMT -5
let me play devil's advocate for a moment. do you say that your dogs love you? or do they simply hang around because you are the only people they associate with food, play, exercise, a place to sleep etc. my guess, is that you do say they love you. so then could a dog be mean or hate just as easily? i would now like to quote from a book called Merle's door, "However, Konrad Lorenz, who won the nobel peace prize in 1973 for his work on the organization of social behavior in animals, often spoke of his Grey Geese "falling in love." Occasionally, his colleagues took him for being anthropomorphic, he would reply, "it is an accurate term for a real phenomenon for which there is no other name. I consider the term appropriate of any species, if that is in fact what they do." Now replace "falling in love" with "being mean", and re-read. how then could you not say that the dog possesses hate and is in turn acting that emotion through the physical process of being mean? Because as a trainer and someone who has counselled many people on their dog's aggression issues, in my experience what are termed 'mean', 'spiteful', 'vicious', etc behaviors are very easily explained in scientific ways as behaviors related to a) confusion, b) fear, c) lack of training, d) learning that has taken place, etc. Dogs aren't 'just aggressive', or 'just mean'. There are always underlying reasons. There is also no descriptive term 'mean' in the scientific literature or ANY of my behavior texts. Labeling behavior with human emotional terms does no one any good. Imagine I am going to a home as a trainer, and the person is having trouble with their dog. The dog is aggressive anytime someone new comes into the home to visit. How productive would it be to just tell the owner, "Hey, your dog's mean, that's his nature. You'll just have to live with it." Or I told the owner the dog was 'mean' and then devised a training plan around that, which the owner embarked on with all the baggage that the word 'mean' would carry. Maybe the owner would be resentful of the dog, more apt to use pain/punishment in training, or feel hopeless because they got stuck with a 'mean' dog. What if instead I explained that the dog is fearful because he is not used to new people coming in and out of the home (let's say he was isolated during the socialization periods). I explain that the dog needs more outside, positive exposure to other people. That the dog needs a 'safe place' he can retreat to when new people come in the door, that the dog needs to be desensitized and counter conditioned to new people who come into the home, and that the dog's attitude will change when he learns new, better associations with the thing (new people) he is aggressive towards because of fear and territorial issues. Traditionally, people did (and still do) all sorts of crappy things to dogs because of a lack of understanding of behavior and learning. Dogs get slapped, pulled, pushed, flipped over, scruff shaken, yanked around and , because people don't understand learning and behavior in dogs. Dogs are called mean, nasty, spiteful, tricky, jerks, etc - it's so easy to blame the DOG by labelling instead of taking the time to understand what is truly going on and devise a training plan to suit the dog. Even in our own human interactions, it's easier to be nasty to someone or brush someone off if we call that person 'mean'. Even when you may have no personal negative experience with someone, if others tell you 'that guy is just a jerk', your perception of that person is now colored and you may treat him differently. What if instead of labelling someone as 'mean', you understood that the person was cranky at times because they were in chronic pain, going through a really bad divorce, just lost someone they cared about, or had emotional issues that hadn't been dealt with. Maybe it's my behaviorist self coming through in my day to day life, but I don't like arbitrary, emotion-driven labels. I don't find them helpful and they are certainly not helpful when developing a behavior modification program or helping an owner understand their dog better.
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Mean
Jan 22, 2009 12:44:16 GMT -5
Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 22, 2009 12:44:16 GMT -5
Perfectly explained, Mary. Some of the hardest clients are those who anthromorphisize their dogs, consider them children and excuse their behavior as something fluffier in terms.
I prefer to look for triggers, determine a modification plan and take the burden of "figuring it out" off of the owners. Owners want to know *why* their dog reacts in certain undesired ways and if they dwell on that, they will not progress in changing the behaviors. Even dogs which have endured graphic abuse and display some issues once better will exhibit trigger related behaviors, not emotionally driven, decisive, revenge-like intentions.
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snipe
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Mean
Jan 22, 2009 15:00:18 GMT -5
Post by snipe on Jan 22, 2009 15:00:18 GMT -5
ya i agree (notice i said "devils advocate", i was just arguing to get a conversation going) my aunt babies the heck out of her dog and thing has so many issues i feel sad for it. i think that we can label some of the "emotions" our dog displays with human words but we need to understand where they come from. i dont know if you have heard of her but temple grandin writes in her book Animals In Translation about a lion (or maybe a tiger) who was given a pillow while being shipped on a plane becuz its owners thought it would be more comfortable. this was in fact true, the lion/tiger most likely did want some thing comfortable, but more along the lines of leaves or grass. the lion/tiger ate the pillow and died.
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Mean
Jan 22, 2009 15:48:49 GMT -5
Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 22, 2009 15:48:49 GMT -5
i dont know if you have heard of her but temple grandin writes in her book Animals In Translation about a lion (or maybe a tiger) who was given a pillow while being shipped on a plane becuz its owners thought it would be more comfortable. this was in fact true, the lion/tiger most likely did want some thing comfortable, but more along the lines of leaves or grass. the lion/tiger ate the pillow and died. It's rarely about the animal, but about the humans. I knew the ending of your example before I even read it.
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snipe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 421
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Mean
Jan 22, 2009 21:51:42 GMT -5
Post by snipe on Jan 22, 2009 21:51:42 GMT -5
yes, we can describe the emotions an animal has but, usually why they are occurring is different from why they would occur in us.
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Mean
Jan 23, 2009 8:13:38 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 23, 2009 8:13:38 GMT -5
Yes, I know of Temple Grandin. I have her book.
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Mean
Jan 23, 2009 8:17:22 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Jan 23, 2009 8:17:22 GMT -5
As far as emotions and animals - I absolutely believe animals have emotions. It's just important to not substitute emotional labeling for actually taking the time to understand what's truly going on with the animal. Interesting topic, fer sure.
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Mean
Jan 23, 2009 13:13:40 GMT -5
Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 23, 2009 13:13:40 GMT -5
I certainly believe that dogs have emotions and feelings with some on deeper levels. I know that joy is one of them which is apparent at my house anytime I grab the leashes and the car keys. It's all they can do to maintain a sit while whining and grunting and swishing their tails. Or when I break out a big meaty bone...if I could bottle *that* emotion! I don't think a dog could possess the emotion of hatred. Not in the true sense of the word, as dwelling on the hopeful demise of another or wishing harm or death on another. I agree that not all dogs like every other dog they will meet, just as we humans don't like every person. Sometimes we can't even put our finger on why, it's just two sould which don't mesh. But it isn't just for no reason and it certainly isn't a conscious decision, it's a reaction. I don't know which emotion this may be classified as but I swear Cajun has rolled his eyes at me before.
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Mean
Mar 2, 2009 8:03:06 GMT -5
Post by pmccarthy on Mar 2, 2009 8:03:06 GMT -5
Mary, Jessica
Our vet told us to look for the "trigger" as well. Can you give examples of "triggers" that people have found in the past. For example our vet said that maybe a DA will sense another DA and will want more space or will feel the need to take over the other DA's space. Can you help us with what certain triggers, or will we need to the dog trainer to see a DA to help us determine triggers?
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Mean
Mar 2, 2009 9:54:41 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Mar 2, 2009 9:54:41 GMT -5
Mary, Jessica Our vet told us to look for the "trigger" as well. Can you give examples of "triggers" that people have found in the past. For example our vet said that maybe a DA will sense another DA and will want more space or will feel the need to take over the other DA's space. Can you help us with what certain triggers, or will we need to the dog trainer to see a DA to help us determine triggers? Pam, triggers will vary from dog to dog. You have to know your dog and be vigilent. Common triggers for dog-aggression include space, food, toys, attention, excitement, rudeness on the part of the other dog, etc.
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Mean
Mar 2, 2009 10:47:03 GMT -5
Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 2, 2009 10:47:03 GMT -5
What issues are you having? It wasn't explained in this thread. If it's in another, just direct me so you don't have to redescribe.
Triggers, as Mary said, can be any number of things, combinations of things. I own a fearful pit bull. Her triggers (which illicites reactions or stress) are numerous:
1. Me parking the car anywhere but at home. (stress response)
2. Strangers approaching her when she's in the car (defensive aggressive reaction with attempt to flee)
3. Any strange adult, regardless of environment (defensive aggression, attempt to flee/hide, stress)
4. Thunderstorms, loud storms (stress, anxiety)
5. Gunfire, fireworks, etc (stress, anxiety)
6. Strangers approaching her while in a crate (aggressive display due to inability to flee)
People in costumes illicite a more aroused reaction, large hats, beards, anything out of the ordinary lowers her threshold of feeling defensive.
Those are just some examples but others can be desire to guard resources, pain, territory (as Mary stated, space which could be it's crate, dog bed, YOU, your bed, etc).
For some dogs it is a sound which has been associated with something else. Think doorbell ringing or creak of the mail slot on the door (we've all seen the dogs maul the mail shoved through the mail slots on home video shows).
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Mean
Mar 2, 2009 14:26:33 GMT -5
Post by pmccarthy on Mar 2, 2009 14:26:33 GMT -5
Well we know that he is dog aggressive, but we do not know to what extent yet. We have a pretty good idea. But the incident has been so isolated. I am just trying to learn what I can and see if I can learn from others issues as well. We are in our 3rd week of owning the dog, so I am on here all the time reading while I wait for the trainer to call me back. My husband and I are going to the book store tonite too! My thread is the SImba thread. I thought maybe to if I aksed that question as I was curious, it might help Dan to, to get a plan together with his dog.
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Mean
Mar 2, 2009 14:32:16 GMT -5
Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 2, 2009 14:32:16 GMT -5
May I ask what brought you to the conclusion that Simba is DA? Aside from this incident, what have you seen since you have had him and do you know any history?
How old is he and has he been neutered, if so at what age?
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