Good breeders, bad breeders, no breeders at all?

[RealPitBull]

Am I opening a can of worms? I thought we could get an educational discussion on breeding going.

[maryellen]

i think its VERY important...

i think the most important thing is that the breeder breeds to better the breed, not for money. i feel the breeder should health test, and cull dogs that are not genetically healthy and that carry genetic defects.

i think that if anyone wants a breeder dog they MUST go meet the dogs/breeder, and choose a pup in person.. unless if they know the breeder is reputable and knows them then thats a different story.
a reputable breeder should stand behind their dogs for the life of the dog with the new owner.

and that is for any breed...

[emilys]

We need GOOD breeders if we want to have, you know, breeds.
;-)

But between the failure of the kennel clubs/breed clubs to enforce standards and their acceptance of biological monstrosities on the one hand, and on the other hand the refusal of the REAL dog fancy (people like us) to criticize the kennel/breed clubs because it might look like we're on the same side as PETA (witness the current outrage that they are using the BBC anti-purebred program to promote their own anti-pet agenda), there is no hope for the continuance of healthy, sound purebred dogs (with a few exceptions, not including our own).

We'll be left with the mixed breeds who carry mixed traits

[bubsy]

I'm all for good breeders :-) I want people to fully health test before they breed..have knowledge of their dog's pedigree, what health problems have popped up in their lines, etc. I'd also love for breeders to be open about their dog's temperaments....and really *know* their dog's temperaments. If the dog isn't a part of the family...how do they know much about them? Oh yeah, and they must take back any dog they bred, at any time, for whatever reason.

[bubsy]

Here is something that I love to see- litter summaries! This is a Berner breeder that I admire, I hope to have a Berner one of these days...and I'd be honored to have one of her dogs. Unfortunately the breed isn't a healthy one..so I love to see breeders put up info like this.
www.kaibabbmd.org/littersummariers.html

[mcgregor]

I dont recommend public breeding...... there are way too many ignorants damaging the breed even though they have good intentions ... Breding should be done by the professionals who have a legal business..... therefore they have the money for veterinarian sevice , food supplies , grooming , etc and all the neccesary items needed.... most people who breed with good intentions may have love for the breed but love is not enough....... puppymills must be outlawed and taken down and if we give the public the right to breed then puppymills will survive, I say leave the breeding to the professionals.... throw the money wanters and ignorants out to the four winds...... we dont need more breeding and unwanted animals.......... The shelters are proof of that...

[bamapitbullmom]

As an enthusiast of purebred dogs, I support ethical and responsible breeders. My opinion is a reputable breeder is easy to identify.

I also do not feel that breeding dogs should be a business. In my opinion, if you are making money breeding dogs, you're doing it wrong.

There are many breeders which are exceptionally involved in dogs, whether it be sports, conformation, competetive events which seem to get a little too large for my tastes. Their breeding programs may be very responsible in every aspect except for the number of dogs they breed. Sort of a quality *and* quantity combination, though sometimes I find breeding high numbers of litters can be unethical in itself, even when everything else is done to a high degree of ethics and responsibility.

An indication of a reputable breeder would be one who is very experienced and knowledgeable about their chosen breed, is realistic about what they are capable of, carefully and thoroughly plans litters, plans a breeding with specific goals in mind (attainable goals), announces planned breedings in order to secure acceptable, approved homes and requires deposits BEFORE a breeding takes place.

All dogs are thoroughly health screened at appropriate ages (preferably above and beyond breed specific genetic issues). All dogs are allowed to fully mature and exhibit stable temperaments before being bred. All bred dogs should be actively involved in conformation, obedience, sanctioned dog events and/or working dogs bred with a purpose and proven ability and titled.

I personally prefer a breeder which places emphasis on proper and on-going socialization, houses their dogs in sanitary environments with mental and physical stimulation and enrichment, is knowledgeable about canine behavior, diet and husbandry and beyond.

Ethical breeders are involved in rescue in some aspects, provides and requires contracts, spay and neuter stipulations and requirements for pet quality puppies, does not allow puppies to leave the litter and mom until at LEAST 8 weeks of age, preferably slightly older. Each puppy and family is matched for an ideal combination, not just sold to the family who chooses it first or based on appearance solely.

Requires a lengthy and in-depth screening process for potential owners, allows visits and "breeder audits", encourages new owners to become involved with their dogs and is willing to offer lifetime support for each puppy they sell and mean it. They also should be very willing and happy to provide references from past puppy buyers, veterinarians and other reputable breeders of the same breed. They also should, per contract, accept any puppy or produced dog back at anytime during it's lifetime and for any reason. If a breeder isn't responsible or concerned for dogs they've produced, they likely aren't going to be concerned for much else.

Most reputable breeders do not need to advertise puppies for sale.

There is alot more I would add but in regards to irresponsible breeders, they are much easier to identify!

I haven't read this entire page but have skimmed it. Though I don't agree with everything, much or most of this information would serve well anyone considering purchasing a purebred puppy:

www.5stardog.com/dog-breeders.asp

[maryc]

I think this is an extremely important topic that we NEED to discuss, everyone who loves dogs needs to discuss it. In the past week this topic has come up in 4 different places I was at. In each case the people I was talking with, good smart responsible people, were amazed that you need to look at the temperament of the dogs before even thinking about breeding. We were discussing the issues we are seeing with blue dogs (of various breeds actually). I spoke with a guy and his girlfriend at class who have a beautiful pit bull, he is really stunning, but he has some strong fear issues which I have no doubt would lead to aggression and he is un-neutered, when I suggested this to them his girlfriend said he was so handsome she wanted to breed him. I flat out told him that yes, although he was extremely handsome, his temperament did not represent what a "pit bull" should be like. I also pointed out all of the current and past shelter dogs (who were also beautiful) that came from other people who thought they HAD to breed their dogs!!!

YES YES YES, let's talk about this!

[mcgregor]

MaryC

I agree with your Quote: [color=Blue[size=2]]"In each case the people I was talking with, good smart responsible people, were amazed that you need to look at the temperament of the dogs before even thinking about breeding." [/color][/size]
[/i]


Too many people take up breeding with the concept of just because their dog is beautiful, they have no clue! the people who breed need proper knowledge for the care of the bitch and her pups....... This is why I say leave it to the professionals because they know what they are doing........ Most people who breed , do not have extra money to feed or give medical care when needed .... a professional breeding service which is a business most always has the finances to take care of the bitch and her pups .... each pup sold gains profit for the business and that added profit each month pays for the food and care of the dogs including employee payouts....... a charge of 300 dollars or 1,000 dollars or more is sufficent, pups should not be given free to a good home, I think not, as such is the case; sinister people are always looking for free pets for the purpose of bait or fight dogs ... they want to make money not lose it..... not only should breeding be left to the professionals but they must be a reputable source that would not give a pup to just about anyone

[mcgregor]

OOOPS! I made a boo boo twice... "the and her pups" I meant to say the bitch and her pups

[mcgregor]

Duh the word is missing again , I guess the board is censoring words that are not proper here but calling a momma dog a b is not derogatory, guess ole man computer is getting really confused ........LOL

[RealPitBull]

First, let's get this straight: breeding is not a business. I am not opposed to charging higher licensing fees for intact dogs, or even selling 'breeder licenses', BUT as far as turning breeding into a business with government involvement - I think that sends the wrong message about what breeding is and why it should be done. After all, consider the breeder businesses that are out there, licensed by the USDA, that sell their pups to pet shops or through online stores.

Breeding properly is a HOBBY. Breeders should breed for THEMSELVES, because they love their breed, and wish to better the breed through a small, controlled breeding program. They should know where all their puppies go; they should do little if any advertising because they won't be actively trying to sell puppies they produce - they will have a reputation and be known in their breed circle, and people will come to the breeder to purchase puppies - the breeder won't need to solicit business.

A breeder should fully immerse themselves in their hobby. They should understand their breed inside and out, have a knowledge of genetics, have a vision of their breed for the future, and know what they are striving to produce through their breeding program.

For the most part, I'd say I am opposed to breeding that doesn't fit the above criteria. I am a HUGE fan of purebred dogs, however, so I am not against all breeding. Just most of the breeding that goes on today. I do think as a whole, the purebred dog fancy has some major problems. I think the breeding of certain dogs that are so deformed they cannot even give natural birth is disgusting. The ranking systems that promote over-breeding (i.e. producers of the most champions, etc) is something I am opposed to as well.

I cannot fathom bringing more lives into this world without having the intention to be fully responsible for those lives. Sadly, most people producing dogs view them as a means to an end, a product, a way to a quick buck, or a self-esteem booster.

[RealPitBull]

Jan 12, 2009 8:49:41 GMT -5 mcgregor said:

Duh the word is missing again , I guess the board is censoring words that are not proper here but calling a momma dog a b is not derogatory, guess ole man computer is getting really confused ........LOL

Sorry, lol, b*tch is one of those censored words on this board. I'll actually remove it from the list, however, because I think most people on this board would be inclined to use it to describe a female dog, and not in a derogatory way ;D

[mcgregor]

I also dont cater to breeding as a hobby .......there are way too many dogs at the shelters with no homes... what will a breeder/hobbist do when he finds out that no one is interested in his pups and the pups start to grow and grow and the breeder has new litters on the way......... breeding by the public has to stop regardless of good or bad inentions...what will the breeder do as the numbers of all the unwanted pups in all the litters bred accumulate......?...... thats just the case here ...giving the ok for breeding as a hobby only encourages the concept to grow as it is being done now...

[bamapitbullmom]

Jan 12, 2009 10:05:29 GMT -5 mcgregor said:

I also dont cater to breeding as a hobby .......there are way too many dogs at the shelters with no homes... what will a breeder/hobbist do when he finds out that no one is interested in his pups and the pups start to grow and grow and the breeder has new litters on the way......... breeding by the public has to stop regardless of good or bad inentions...what will the breeder do as the numbers of all the unwanted pups in all the litters bred accumulate......?...... thats just the case here ...giving the ok for breeding as a hobby only encourages the concept to grow as it is being done now...

I think that you may have a misunderstanding of what we mean by hobby breeder. A hobby breeder is not just some guy who decides to take up a new hobby of breeding purebred dogs.

Hobby breeders generally have a very long history of experience and knowledge of a particular breed beginning early in life. They have a deep devotion and love for the breed (whichever breed it may be) and are involved in all aspects of the breed and well-known within that breed's community and beyond.

Hobby breeders are folks who do not raise dogs for profit because breeding is not their source of income. It is a "hobby", something they choose to do. And most reputable breeders begin breeding because they are already highly involved with the breed in sports, conformation or other dog activities and decided to produce dogs which are well suited for competetions.

The money should already be there for the care of the puppies, emergencies, expenses of raising a litter properly, food, etc not funded by the sale of puppies. This is where alot of irresponsible and unprepared and unethical "breeders" run into trouble.

A hobby breeder is NOT a back yard breeder. A back yard breeder, or the "public" as I think you are referring to BYB's as, haven't a clue about what is really involved in properly breeding and raising dogs on any level.

Jan 12, 2009 10:05:29 GMT -5 mcgregor said:

I also dont cater to breeding as a hobby .......there are way too many dogs at the shelters with no homes.

While I agree that there are way too many dogs at the shelters, this is not because of hobby breeders. This is because of folks who breed dogs for profit, produce more litters than there is a demand for, lack of spay and neutering among pets, uncontrolled strays and back yard breeders.

This is evidenced by the plethora of dogs/puppies for sale in the classifieds. Every single Sunday I read these ads and see lots of new ones among the "regulars". The people peddling Malti-poos for $1,000 or "CKC registered full-blooded German Shepards for $100 each" "Rare blue ADBA registered PITT Bull puppy, must sell pd $5,000 sell for $1,000". THESE are the reasons the shelters are full. All of these bred-by-public dogs advertised will go to the first new home who offers the cash and will be unaltered and probably bred.

You'll sooner see a dog bred by a hobby breeder on an agility field, show ring, earning their CDX, doing Therapy work, etc than you will see a hobby bred dog in a shelter. Does it happen? I'm sure. But I would think it would be a rarity.

Jan 12, 2009 10:05:29 GMT -5 mcgregor said:

what will a breeder/hobbist do when he finds out that no one is interested in his pups and the pups start to grow and grow and the breeder has new litters on the way......... breeding by the public has to stop regardless of good or bad inentions...what will the breeder do as the numbers of all the unwanted pups in all the litters bred accumulate......?...... thats just the case here ...giving the ok for breeding as a hobby only encourages the concept to grow as it is being done now...

Reputable hobby breeders do not breed two dogs unless the litter is already accounted for. They don't just breed two dogs then advertise the puppies for sale in the local newspaper when they are 7 weeks old. Hobby breeders only occassionally plan litters, sometimes 2 litters a year, some hobby breeders only have a litter every few years. The litters are planned based on many factors and the puppies are usually in high demand and are reserved quickly. Some planned litters have waiting lists of a few years. There is not an instance in a REPUTABLE hobby breeder being unable to place puppies.

[RealPitBull]

I'll add that many hobby breeders breed even LESS than once a year, and may only have a little every few or more years.

[RealPitBull]

Just so we have our jargon straight ;D

BYB/Back Yard Breeder - casual, probably one-time breeder, or small-scale peddler - may breed because they "want a dog just like Sparky", or have 'friends and family who really like our dog and want a pup", or because their bitch just 'needs' to have one litter, ect.

Commercial breeder/puppy mill/wholesaler/professional breeder - large scale breeder; their business is breeding dogs, either for direct sale to the public, or to brokers/pet shops. USDA licensed kennels. They don't do any health certification, showing, titling, anything.

Hobby breeder - breeds for the betterment of the breed, because they love purebred dogs/showing. Typically loses money each litter. Immersed in all aspects of their breed. Known in their breed community.

Are some hobby breeders unethical? Of course. But this is the category in which you will find ethical breeders.

By virture of definition, ALL commercial breeders and BYBs are unethical.

[mayhemkb]

I read this thread and wanted to put my 2 cents in.

I fully support responsible breeding. Saying that it is like a double edged sword though. I worry about purebred dogs in general. Closed Stud books, and founders effects are hurting purebreds. Overbreeding, or irresponsible breeding hurt purebreds too. Where do you draw the line? Breeding dogs should not be a money making business, but clearly it can be. Puppymills are logical for people (I use the term loosely) who grew up with farming mentalities. Animals are capitol and property to be used for profit in that mentality. I have seen 2 different types of puppy mills. Those that are despicable in every sense of the meaning, dirty, mean, rotten conditions, terrible health and care. Then there are the puppy mills that are clean, healthy (not genetically), well cared for but overbred animals. That is a well run business through and through. I find them appalling but they are everywhere. I venture to say many of the "responsible" breeders I have met in my time are not very far off from a small scale clean puppy mill. There is only a hair of difference, usually health tests. People who have 15+dogs that breed 1-3 litters a year and show often are running a business too. They may do health tests for their breedings, but really why would they run to breed 1-3 b*tches a year in the neame of the breed. What's the rush? They aren't producing bad dogs, many breed high level champions with great temperments and bloodlines-but clearly they make a profit from their pups. The problem with demonizing breeders who produce more than 1 litter a year is that eventually they all get put out of "business" then dogs become a rarity and nearly impossible to obtain and PeTA wins- or you keep the door open for the clen puppy millers to stay in business. What a razor thin line to walk.

That even opens up to a odd question related to breeding-spay/neuter good or bad? I agree in spay neuter for population control but slowley things are coming out about the negative health effects of spay/neuter that weaken dogs all around. I have seen people hold off on or not carry out sterilization only to not have the forsight to stop accidental breedings. That is not good. Again where should the line be drawn? Such a can of worms to untangle.

[bamapitbullmom]

Twisting this discussion a bit. I've always felt that in order to promote responsible breeding it is imperative to educate the public about the consequences of supporting BYBs and basically, the breeders who are just adding to the overall problems plaguing breeds, overpopulation and pet relinquishment.

It is soooo easy for someone to suddenly decide they want a (insert breed here) and have a puppy within days. Those of us in rescue all have received the emails after we deny an applicant which proves that some people just want a puppy...not the responsibility or accountability which should come with it.

We've denied people for very valid reasons (and provided education pertaining to the reasons we denied them) and they respond that they'll just go buy a puppy and blame us for keeping homeless dogs homeless.

We have breeders in my area which would probably consider themselves hobby breeders. And maybe by definition they are but certainly not by my standards. They may show in our region and finish several dogs here and there but essentially, they are breeding pet quality dogs with a potential champion from time to time, which they will keep for themselves. That to me, is not breeding for betterment of breed.

If it were more difficult to attain a dog (by any means) it would probably help encourage owners to *keep* said dog, to address behavioral issues and enroll in training classes. If someone is required to prove to a reasonable degree the level of care they are willing to provide before being sold a puppy, that puppy may be more worthwhile to them or at least, maybe they would be faced to honestly consider if they are ready or able to own a puppy or dog for the next 15 years or more. Not just til the newness and novelty wears off.

I feel that *something* must be done about these registries which offer papers and pedigrees on anything with four legs which is simply a selling point. Those in the know understand that a registered dog can be anything from a genetic, incorrect, unsound lab experiement to a sound, high quality, stable and correct specimen of the breed. But to the layman...registration papers are gold.

We must educate the public about the importance of choosing a breeder which is reputable and WHY.

The only dog I ever acquired from a breeder was my first Rottweiler which my parents bought for me when I was 16 years old. I researched breeders and lines for years. I stayed in touch with his breeder by mail and phone before the litter was planned and well after I got my dog. My father and I visited her in Texas when there visiting family and she welcomed us, spent the day talking Rottweilers and we were able to meet my dogs sire, dam, a couple of siblings and the other dogs.

That experience stayed with me. But as alot of you are, I am obsessed with dogs and everything about them. Others simply want a dog and the relationship with a breeder ends when the puppy is picked up or delivered. There is great opportunity to become more involved if a breeder is very reputable and active in the dogworld.

There should be high expectations for breeders. Breeding dogs is big business for lots of people because there is an uneducated market out there, willing to scoop them up for $50 or $5,000.

[mcgregor]

Thanks for clarifying hobby breeders, I understand now ........ yes I was mainly talking about BYB'S and puppy mills, these I know too well and it riles me no end.to see them continue to destroy our pitbull and other breeds....