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Reed
Feb 26, 2009 22:17:01 GMT -5
Post by maryellen on Feb 26, 2009 22:17:01 GMT -5
again i am so sorry you are going thru this.
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 9:26:17 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Feb 27, 2009 9:26:17 GMT -5
He has growled at us (myself, my BF, and 2 girls 8 and 12) since about 2 weeks after we got him. He does it randomly, and I have not been able to figure out what triggers it. Sometimes it's because he's laying down and I pet him. Sometimes it's when he climbs onto the couch or bed next to me and I move to make room for him. He's done it to all 4 of us, never actually doing anything to us. Sometimes he doesn't even open his eyes. Most of the time though he will look at you, but won't even pick up his head.
The rescue/foster mom and I have gone rounds trying to figure out what happened to him. She said he never did anything like this at her house, and if he had, she would not have adopted him out.
I've wondered if I somehow gave him the feeling that I wasn't able to protect him, and so he took it upon himself. I've wondered if he just figured he could take over my house. I've wondered if I just shouldn't have dogs period. True, I did probably choose the wrong breed for a first time owner. I can't change that now though, and Lola hasn't ever done anything like that. I've also wondered if all the things my family has gone through have somehow projected on to him. As far as stress, and grief. I just don't know.
I do know that I will never be "ok" with euthanizing him, but I certainly am not "ok" with him somehow hurting someone either.
Thank you for everything.
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 10:28:06 GMT -5
Post by maryellen on Feb 27, 2009 10:28:06 GMT -5
is it possible he is just a vocal dog? my rottie mix was VERY vocal, he would growl a growly hewerroooo when i walked in the door at night, would growl when he got a belly rub, talked all the time.. people were weirded out by it as it was growly and weird...
with the couch thing, that is a resource guarding issue that can be fixed easily- no couch no furniture at all , its part of the NILIF training on the link i gave you.
so the foster mom said he never acted like this at her house the entire time she had him? if that is the case it sounds like you are A. babying him too much B. not giving ANY rules or boundaries C. letting him get away with stuff the foster mom never did...
when dogs go to new homes they will test the new owners to see what they can get away with and who will let them get away with it.. all dogs do it irregardless of breed... if the dog was fine at the foster house, either he just isnt a good fit for your house or you are basically not giving him any structure,training or rules... (and please dont get mad at me for saying this).
maybe you should start over with him and do strict nilif, give him a schedule of rules and boundaries, no furniture at all and make him work for his food/petting /etc with NILIF...
also, he could be a vocal dog who growls (like a cat purring ) at certain things and who isnt really growling but vocalizing...
it honestly sounds like you basically gave him the keys to the house and said welcome home do what you want.. especially with the growling when on the furniture... which can be easily fixed by not allowing it at first and then making him work for it... NILIF is awesome, the dog must work for everything, which can bring snotty dogs/pups back to earth and have them realize the world is not theirs to take over..
honestly, that is what it sounds like, he is being allowed to get away with murder basically and has no rules or boundaries and is being fed grapes and fanned with a grape leaf.... sounds like he just needs an attitude adjustment with NILIF.. normally, if you do strict NILIF and obedience training you will see a HUGE difference within a week , as the dog then realizes his bratty behavior wont get him squat anymore, and he will start to understand... i suggest trying NILIF very strictly.. no furniture at all EVER. keep his leash on so that if he gets on the couch/bed you just take the leash and say OFF BED Reed. and casually take the leash and pull him off.. no fuss, just matterof factly.. with feeding time, he must work for it. period.. he doesnt work, he dont eat. period.. make him sit for every morsel and hand feed him. he doesnt sit on the first command, put the bowl away till the next feeding.. dont worry he wont starve trust me.. next feednng, tell him to Sit. ONCE. he dont sit, he dont eat. period.. by the next day he should realize that sit means sit.. make him sit for every morsal, and if he knows any other commands, use those too.. he doesnt do them, he dont eat.. period... same with going outside,or pets, make him EARN it.. not give it free.... but EARN it... my dogs were all trained this way, and it does work,and its not mean. have the kids do it too with you supervising . he doesnt sit when they say sit once, he doessnt eat.. or go outside. he can go backin his crate. then you try again later.. dont get mad, dont get frustrated, just have a confident air about you and be matter of factly.. and no furniture ... he hasnt earned his right to that yet....
the way i look at it, if he doesnt get a job and pay the mortgage , who says he is allowed free reign in the house and on the furniture? my dogs are allowed on the furniture, but they have to do something for me first, and when i say get off they better get off or else...
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 10:44:05 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Feb 27, 2009 10:44:05 GMT -5
I'm not convinced by what I've read so far that Reed needs to be euthanized. I'd carefully go over all the posts written on this topic, take notes, and go from there.
One that that stands out is that he's getting too much freedom. I think you need to have a person well-versed in behavior (the trainer you've been working with?) come to your home and do a full in-home evaluation, then have you embark on a behavior mod program, and go from there.
IMO, very rarely does a dog in a home need to be euth'd for aggression because there is 'no fix'. Most of the time it boils down to what the home can reasonably and responsibly handle.
A lot of aggression is just normal dog behavior and once some things are tweaked in the home, the dog is fine. Other aggression is out of context and it's this sort of aggression that will never be 'eliminated', although training and proper management can vastily improve the behavior, or keep it from surfacing.
When kids are involved, I am much more cautious and depending on how bad the aggression is, I may just suggest euth'ing. But since your kids are a bit older, and based on what you've written here, I would not outright suggest euth'ing him.
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 11:31:18 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Feb 27, 2009 11:31:18 GMT -5
Well, I've been going back and forth for so long, I just don't know what to do. I wish I were closer to Mary so I could have him eval'd by her. I do have a good trainer though that I can have come to my home.
I actually have been thinking all week that it was me that was the problem. That I was babying him and not giving him the boundaries he needs. I felt so bad for him at first because he was a rescue and blah blah blah. Thats MY problem not his. I think I need the training. Now, I guess I got used to the way things were and I love him, so I want to baby him and coddle him.
I don't do that with the kids though, they have boundaries and rules and would never think of walking all over me.
Well I've been convinced from the beginning that he didn't need to be euth'd. I'm just trying to be responsible, and keep Reed and others safe. ???
Jeez, I think I'm going to make myself crazy over this.
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 11:57:15 GMT -5
Post by maryellen on Feb 27, 2009 11:57:15 GMT -5
well, its an easy fix.. treat him like the kids and make him work for everything and he should turn around.. no need to beat yourself up over it, its a fixable mistake and isnt so bad.... stop coddling him, do strict NILIF, and make him earn his freedom and food and stuff... unless of course he goes out and gets a job and pays the mortgage, then thats a different story...
are there any rescues near you in MI? i know there is a really big one in Michigan but i cant remember their name.. maybe contact them for some training help?
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 12:16:39 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Feb 27, 2009 12:16:39 GMT -5
There are not really any near me. The one I got him from is about 50 miles away. The trainer we saw for obedience classes is really good though. I just emailed her to set up a time for her to come to the house. I've been reading the bully breeds, and dog fancy magazines. I'm going to go get more books and see what I can do. I've also been really interested in clicker training. I will see if the trainer can help me with that. I have even considered going to a training class for myself. Although I've never really heard of any around here. I think I owe it to him to do the work, now that we are in this situation. Thank you and please know that I would not ever get mad about any advice or criticisms you may have. I realize why you are here and willing to help and I appreciate it.
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 14:17:52 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Feb 27, 2009 14:17:52 GMT -5
I am SO happy to hear you booked an appt with your trainer!
Also, I *strongly* suggest you pick up the following books. You can get them through Amazon or Dogwise.com. I think they will really give you some peace of mind:
*How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong by Pam Dennison *Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Training by Pam Dennison Clicker Training by Karen Pryor (might have to order that directly from her, try clickertraining.com or Sunshine Books). Clicking With Your Dog by Peggy Tillman *Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
The three with the asterisks are the ones I think you should get and read ASAP.
In the mean time, Reed's on lock down! No freedom - either leash him or crate him. He's gotta work (sit) for all food, toys, play, and attention. And no furniture!
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 14:42:07 GMT -5
Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 27, 2009 14:42:07 GMT -5
With everything said here, I think that Reed is workable. He's not overtly aggressive, he seems to have personal space issues. Along with NILIF I think you also need to motivate him, have fun with him, create a better relationship through exercises and an upbeat reward system. You've actually already indicated a trigger. Invasion of space. He guards his area, his bed, his spot on the sofa. I would eliminate access to the furniture and instead of approaching him when he's lying down or on his bed, encourage him to come to you cheerfully and reward him. Walk by him when he's on his bed or lying down and toss extra goodies (Natural Balance rolls are great for this, dice them and store in the fridge). Keep a leash on him in the home so that if he does get on the furniture, you have a leash to hold and encourage him off and reward him when he does. Be careful to never attempt to remove him from somewhere by grabbing his collar. I would also suggest some Tellington Touch massage. Do a bit of research first and begin with your safety in mind (no leaning over his head and begin with parts of his body he enjoys having handled. TT massage relaxs animals and will encourage acceptance of physical handling. If you have a crate, you can use it for his down time. It's a safe retreat for him and a space of his own which should be off limits for the kids and in a quiet area of the home. I don't know if he has ever exhibited resource guarding but as a precaution with Reed, who has displayed warnings you may want to be proactive about how he is fed. I'd suggest hand feeding him, scattering his kibble in the kitchen floor or in the yard and have him "hunt" his food. It's a great mental workout as nose work is employed and lessens the area in which to guard his food. When he's eating from a bowl, toss in extra goodies such as cubed cheese, liver, etc. This will reinforce the idea that a person approaching his resource brings great things. Just toss in a few treats and walk away. Teach a "leave it" cue. Work with him on trading up. Any dog which may guard a possession or space needs to be verbally controlled to remove himself from the item when told. Stuff and freeze kongs to give him in his crate. Use puzzle toys, the types such as Buster Cubes, dog bricks (check out as these are all extra activities to keep him motivated, stimulated and mentally exercised. Increase duration of walks which is great bonding time. It sounds as if either he is underconfident (lacking trust) or overly confident (bit of a bully). All interactions should be positive and rewarding. I don't know if you have or not but I would strongly suggest against punishing or trying to correct a growl. A growl is not necessarily a bad thing, it is a warning which indicates "if you don't stop what you are doing, I will bite". This warning is useful in that without it, you get a dog which bites *without* warning. This behavior is very fixable. But I will also say that this is a dog which will need to be managed as his history is unknown and we likely won't know all of his triggers for some time. Don't become complacent. What area of Michigan are you in? I'll be glad to see if there is a qualified trainer or behaviorist in your area. And lastly, I want to tell you that as difficult as it is to have a dog with issues to the point of considering euthanasia, I applaud you for being realistic and reaching out for help. That's a sure sign of a responsible owner.
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Reed
Feb 27, 2009 23:35:20 GMT -5
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 27, 2009 23:35:20 GMT -5
Hey there I have been thinking about a lot. I am not going to ask you how it is going, I think we all pretty well know. Just wanted you to that we are thinking about, and hoping that you are coping o.k. Thoughts and prayers to you and your family.
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Feb 28, 2009 20:25:21 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Feb 28, 2009 20:25:21 GMT -5
Hey there I have been thinking about a lot. I am not going to ask you how it is going, I think we all pretty well know. Just wanted you to that we are thinking about, and hoping that you are coping o.k. Thoughts and prayers to you and your family. Actually, I chose to not euthanize him and have an appt. this Thursday for a behavior specialist to come to my house and do a home eval. I thought long and hard, and I do not think he is the problem. I think I let him have too much freedom, and now I just have to deal with the consequences and correct the way I am dealing with him. Thank you though. I will continue with updates.
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Feb 28, 2009 21:06:20 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Feb 28, 2009 21:06:20 GMT -5
What area of Michigan are you in? I'll be glad to see if there is a qualified trainer or behaviorist in your area. I'm in West Michigan, just outside of Grand Rapids.
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Reed
Mar 1, 2009 14:14:46 GMT -5
Post by bubsy on Mar 1, 2009 14:14:46 GMT -5
I'm sorry you are going through this. I hope Reed's evaluation with the trainer goes well. (((hugs)))
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Mar 2, 2009 15:55:12 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Mar 2, 2009 15:55:12 GMT -5
Quick update Reed is doing well on "Lockdown." He doesn't seem to care for it much, but after just this weekend he is no longer on any of the furniture and begining to sit before I even ask him to. He doesn't really care to have his leash on, and to have to sit/lay down next to me, but he isn't giving me problems either. The reason I say he doesn't care for it is because as soon as I put his leash on, he puts his head down and won't look at me. Also, the trainer is coming over on Thursday, so I'm hoping we are on the right track.
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Reed
Mar 2, 2009 16:06:17 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Mar 2, 2009 16:06:17 GMT -5
Hey, try this - when you put the leash on, immediately after give him a yummy snack. Just to help him have a better association with the leash. You don't want him to start avoiding it. Make sure the process is timed right/in the right order. *Have a yummy snack ready in your pocket, on a nearby shelf, etc. *Take the leash out and snap it on his collar. *Immediately offer him the treat. After he's starting to show a better attitude regarding the leash, you can begin to happily/quickly walk him over to the treat jar /fridge/etc. right after the leash gets snapped on, instead of having it ready in your pocket, etc. This way he doesn't think it's only fun to have the leash on when he can smell the treat close by.
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Mar 7, 2009 16:45:24 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Mar 7, 2009 16:45:24 GMT -5
Well the trainer was here on Thursday and she said she's definitely seen worse and that I need to continue what I have been doing as far as giving him boundaries and structure. Also to make sure that guests completely ignore him when they come in and to let him approach rather than people getting into his space.
He's been doing really well, no growling. He's completely off furniture still and no longer on the bed at night. We are doing NILIF with him, and he's started to offer a sit automatically for anything.
Then his previous foster mom came over today to see him. We both thought he would be very happy to see her(it's been 6 months). He acted like he didn't know her and after a few minutes started growling at her. I ended up putting him in his crate.
I just don't understand what his deal is. My sister and her GF were over just a bit ago and he growled at her GF also. The same GF that always plays with him and that he's always been very good around.
The foster mom still says to euthanize him. I'm not a person who gives up when things get hard, but this has me wondering. ???
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Reed
Mar 7, 2009 18:40:35 GMT -5
Post by bubsy on Mar 7, 2009 18:40:35 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I wish I had some words of wisdom for you. ((((hugs))))
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Reed
Mar 9, 2009 13:18:01 GMT -5
Post by RealPitBull on Mar 9, 2009 13:18:01 GMT -5
There is some stimulus condition that you aren't yet aware of that is causing the growling. I'd suggest keeping a journal. Each time he growls, write down everything about the environment you can possibly come up with, down to temperature, time of day, position the person was standing in, what part of the house, and what sort of clothes the person was wearing. Barring some medical condition, dogs don't aggress for no reason. If you can pin point the trigger, that's half the battle.
I can't recall - has Reed ever growled or bitten outside the house?
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lola1
I Love RPBF!
Lola and Reed
Posts: 372
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Reed
Mar 9, 2009 14:42:03 GMT -5
Post by lola1 on Mar 9, 2009 14:42:03 GMT -5
No he has not. Actually the foster mom wondered if she had gotten too close to me (about 2 ft away). It's only been in the house, and usually in the first 10-15 minutes of someone coming over.
The trainer had said to let him stay off leash when people come over, and have them ignore him until he gets comfortable and approaches them. I'm not liking that much because I never know when he's going to decide he doesn't like someone. Now he's growled at 2 people that he previously had no problems with.
He was sitting and taking treats from the foster mom, and all of a sudden he kind of stopped moving around, looked right at her, and growled. She said she didn't look him in the eye. Now I'm to the point where I don't want anyone coming to my house.
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Reed
Mar 9, 2009 14:49:26 GMT -5
Post by maryellen on Mar 9, 2009 14:49:26 GMT -5
there had to be a trigger of some sort, whether she looked at his eyes and didnt realize it, smiled, did something.. there has to be a trigger somewhere. did you get the book Help for your fearful dog by nicole wilde? its an awesome book, and goes over triggers and stuff that you would never ever think of that could be a trigger..
you said he stopped moving around , was he moving around when the foster mom was treating him? was she sitting or standing? what was his body language like when he was moving around?
did the fostermom stop giving the treats? some dogs can react to that, maybe he was reacting to her not treating him anymore? what was she doing while treating him?
i would not leave him unleashed when folks come over, as you wont have any control. you can crate him and let him settle down for a half hour and then take him out of the crate on leash, but i wouldnt let him be offleash with his growling issue right now..
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