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Post by pmccarthy on Feb 25, 2009 10:33:34 GMT -5
Good Morning everyone, We are having a bad day in St. Louis . My husband and I have owned a pitbull for 8 years. The best dog we ever had. Her name is Onyx. We thought we had pitbull ownership down to a science and then along comes Simba. Sweet 1 year old neglected by his previous owners, they did not want him, so we decided we did. We have only had the dog 3 weeks and I believe that we gave him too much freedom to begin with, but we just did not expect any agression out of him. Simba has jumped the fence and "got a hold of" our neighbors German Shepherd, "Lily." No injuries the first time, minor the second time. There will not be a third time. Looking for advice on how to deal with our neighbor and give her a sense of security, looking for good trainers in St. Louis. I have taken Simba outside today to go potty, with his harness and leash. Today we are purchasing a muzzle. I am going to call the vet after I hear back from some of you owners' who may have lived through something like this. I am afraid to really talk to anyone until I hear some advice and success stories. We want to give Simba every chance there is, but we do not want our neighbor stressed out either. My husband and I do not have any experience with confrontation with our pitbulls and I am thinking this is where the hard knocks come in, and would like to start out on the right foot. Please send me your experiences, thoughts, advice. Simba is a good dog, but no one will ever be able to see him the way we do. We do have an appointment with the vet to have him neutered on March 10. My husband and I are so panic striken I think we have lost our heads and forgot everything that we knew. Has anyone ever felt that way, or am I just nuts? I do not want to overthink the situation, but I do not, not want to react either. I think we have a potentionally hurtful situation in the lurks, if we do not act ethically, morally, humanely (sp) and do it now. I do not want to think that we have a dog agressive dog, but we will not treat him anyother way. At this time he will go out on a muzzle and a leash. Is it o.k. to do that? I see owners with their dogs muzzled and leashed. We have never had to do that before. Anyway our minds are running in a million different directions. Any advice is appreciated. Success are welcomed! And how you got to that success. Thanks, Paul & Pam
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Post by andreacassel on Feb 25, 2009 10:38:28 GMT -5
Oh gosh - I am sorry to hear that you are going through this. I don't have any experience with this - but I do know that they are some really good threads in the training & care lists. Mary and MaryEllen will be along in a few minutes - they can totally help you get through this. Cruise through those threads and give them a couple of minutes - they will be right along. [/img]
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Post by pmccarthy on Feb 25, 2009 10:53:03 GMT -5
Yeah us either. When I met my husband he a rott weiler and her and Onyx were best of friends, and Simba and Onyx got along even when he would get out of his yard and come visit us. We should not have been so naive. I think if I could just know in my heart that our neighbor Jackie is o.k. and that Lily is o.k. I could gain some emotional ground. But we worry about the future. Thank you for your post. It is helps to talk.
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Post by tank on Feb 25, 2009 11:00:28 GMT -5
I know how you feel about knowing a lot about dogs then when overwhelmed with a situation you temporarily forget all that you know. I have felt that way a lot with my dog and she isn't even a year old yet! I am not a dog trainer and I have little experience with dog aggression, but I do know that sometimes dogs become more aggressive while wearing a muzzle because they get frustrated with it on. Just be aware of that if you have to muzzle him. In my opinion, if he is so young, you can have this problem managed very quickly if you have help from a good trainer, particularly someone who is trained in dog aggression/fear issues. I wish you good luck and I'm sure others will have some better advice shortly.
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Post by pmccarthy on Feb 25, 2009 11:27:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I just wish I could stop crying. I am not big on muzzles, I am not big on crates, and none of my dogs will be chained to a tree or chained period. If my dog is to be on a leash I will be at the other end of it. St. Louis is trying very hard not to condemn pitbulls, it is just the "hoty toty" areas so far. The City of St. Louis separate from the County offers all kinds of assistance with pitbulls and bully breeds. But I am leary of trainers. But you get these people running these puppy mills and attitudes of "I'm gonna get me a big bad pit" cuz I am big bad dude or gal" whichever, and that is just breeding ground for unnecessary destruction. Having Onyx really woke me up to the true definition of the word ignorance. Thank you for your post. I am feeling better already, and cannot wait to have my husband sign on here tonite. He is so upset, when you see a grown man cry it is hard. It is almost like he reverts back to a little boy with his dog! He communicates so well with our 2 dogs. They are so in sync. We don't want to be problem owners' and we want our dogs to live as naturally as they can and be well adjusted.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 11:44:06 GMT -5
Hey Pam, I just had a few things to add for right now.
1) You DO have a dog-aggressive dog, if he has shown inclination to jump fences and attack other dogs. This doesn't have to be the end of the world, this breed in general is prone to developing dog-directed aggression and LOTS of us (including myself) have to manage the issue on a daily basis.
2) About the muzzle - I do feel, except under specific training or handling scenarios, that a muzzle is a crutch and not something I would recommend in general for a dog-aggressive Pit Bull. The whole key with proper management and good Pit Bull guardianship is to be aware of what your dog is capable of, and do what is necessary to keep him out of trouble. A muzzle can keep your dog from biting, but *in theory* the whole reason you are using a muzzle is because of expected contact with other dogs. Do you expect to continually have Simba in situations in which he is likely to make contact with other dogs? If yes, I would think about ways to eliminate that liklihood of contact (i.e. leashes, report neighbors who do not keep their dogs contained, stay out of off leash dog areas, etc). I'm not telling you to NOT use a muzzle if you feel that it is necessary, HOWEVER, a muzzle is NOT a substitute for leashes, good solid fences, crates, and avoidance of areas with off leash dogs.
3) You mention you do not a fan of crates - now that you have two Pit Bulls, one who has shown dog-aggression, it's time to consider crates as a means of containment when you are not around to supervise. Barring crates, keeping dogs in separate rooms is recommended.
Glad you are here - don't worry, we'll work with you on this problem!
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Post by pmccarthy on Feb 25, 2009 12:26:33 GMT -5
I agree the thought of the muzzle occured to us becuase of the expectation of a bite. I do not want to start out with crutches. We need to start with the real thing. We can separate the dogs with a crate or even in separate rooms. I think we are better to think in the mindset of better safe than sorry and just always know what Simba is capable of. I prefer separate rooms is that good? I also agree with the post where it was stated that muzzles will agitate a dog too.
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Chloe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 433
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 12:29:57 GMT -5
I am so sorry to hear about what happened with your dog. It sounds like you have your work cut out for you but I do believe that with training, discipline and consistency his dog aggression can be controlled. I am not a professional dog trainer but my mom is, I grew up with it and have trained many of my own dogs. I live in Colo. so unfortunatly I cant recommend a trainer for you in your area. However, I strongly recommend you look into Ceasar Milan, the dog whisperer. In my opinion, he's fantastic!! I know there's some people who dont like him but there are many that swear by him, I am one of those people. We use his methods on our own dogs and if used correctly, thats the key phrase, if used correctly, it works! I have a pitbull right now and she responds fantastically to his ways. My husband and I had a German Shephard when we were 1st married that we had to muzzel when he was off our property. He was attacked by a boxer when he was just over a yr. old and it reuined him with other dogs forever. After that day, he became the aggressor, I'll get you before you get me mentality, we tried many things with him and he did get a little better (but it was before we knew about Ceasar) we just didnt get the results we needed to. Unfortunatly we had to make a heartbreaking decision to have him put down. It was an extremly hard decision but I know it was the right one. It was just to much of a risk to keep him, we could not afford a lawsuit. Now that I have used Ceasar's ways, I wish I would have known about him back then, we'd probably still have our GSD today. Ceasar specializes in aggressive dogs, both towards people and other dogs. I hope you are able to get a lot of help with him that will work for him so you dont have to do what we had to do with our GSD. I will keep my fingers crossed for you and good luck!
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Post by pmccarthy on Feb 25, 2009 12:31:48 GMT -5
I would also like to ask anyone, do you feel conflict within yourself when you look at that sweet dog with those eyes when they are playing with you and giving you kisses and laying their head on your shoulders and weighing in at 70 pounds being a lap dog, that this dog could have any issues at all? Or when he/she hogs the bed at night and you do not have the heart to disturb him/her and YOU go to the couch? (My husband hates that)!
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 12:37:59 GMT -5
I agree the thought of the muzzle occured to us becuase of the expectation of a bite. I do not want to start out with crutches. We need to start with the real thing. We can separate the dogs with a crate or even in separate rooms. I think we are better to think in the mindset of better safe than sorry and just always know what Simba is capable of. I prefer separate rooms is that good? I also agree with the post where it was stated that muzzles will agitate a dog too. THUMBS UP to everything you said, Pam.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 12:46:45 GMT -5
However, I strongly recommend you look into Ceasar Milan, the dog whisperer. In my opinion, he's fantastic!! I know there's some people who dont like him but there are many that swear by him, I am one of those people. We use his methods on our own dogs and if used correctly, thats the key phrase, if used correctly, it works! Ok, I just have to be blunt I absolutely DO NOT recommend NOR endorse Cesar Millan - as stated when you join the forum, we support POSITIVE, dog-friendly training here. So no promotion of techniques like those Millan uses (he uses choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, etc). I understand many people like him, but since RPB is all about promoting modern, scientifically valid training techniques, we do not receommend his general methods EVER, for ANY reason, on this forum. If anyone would like to learn more, please see the sticky thread on this board on Cesar Milan. I don't want to get in a discussion about him in this thread, as this is about Pam and Simba. I respect individual opinions, this just isn't the forum for promotion of Milan and his tactics, although we can certainly discuss WHY that is so, in the applicable thread. Thanxxxxxxxxx! ;D
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 12:48:39 GMT -5
I would also like to ask anyone, do you feel conflict within yourself when you look at that sweet dog with those eyes when they are playing with you and giving you kisses and laying their head on your shoulders and weighing in at 70 pounds being a lap dog, that this dog could have any issues at all? Or when he/she hogs the bed at night and you do not have the heart to disturb him/her and YOU go to the couch? (My husband hates that)! I honestly don't because I knew getting into this breed that they very often develop dog-directed aggression. It's just something that's part of life, now. Dogs will be dogs, they all have the capabilities of becoming aggressive, and fighting behavior is *normal* dog behavior. But I can certainly understand how it could be upsetting when you hadn't previously been mentally prepared to deal with it.
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Post by pmccarthy on Feb 25, 2009 12:55:32 GMT -5
Chloe,
My husband loves the dog whisperer too! I am sorry about your German Shepherd. Isn't it a shame that we sometimes have to learn by experience. I am glad you are doing good, you can take comfort in the fact that you made the right decision. I had a fox hound who was mentally unstable, and I was determined that the behaviour to could be turned around. Trust me, I would have more comfort in my heart and soul if I would have done the right thing and let him go to rainbow bridge when he was ready.
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Post by pmccarthy on Feb 25, 2009 13:01:41 GMT -5
My husband will snap his finger and point up, and the dogs sit, he snap his finger and point down and they lay down. He will snap his finger point up to the ceiling with his arm raised slighty and they will sit up. Speak, they bark, give paw, they shake. My husband said he learned that from the dog whisperer.
Thanks for that reality check, I needed that. I guess if you have that mentatlity "how sweet they are" maybe you should stick to stuffed animals huh? You are right, if all round pegs would fit into square holes everything would be easy!
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Chloe
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 433
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 16:41:53 GMT -5
Chloe, My husband loves the dog whisperer too! I am sorry about your German Shepherd. Isn't it a shame that we sometimes have to learn by experience. I am glad you are doing good, you can take comfort in the fact that you made the right decision. I had a fox hound who was mentally unstable, and I was determined that the behaviour to could be turned around. Trust me, I would have more comfort in my heart and soul if I would have done the right thing and let him go to rainbow bridge when he was ready. Thank you, that was really sweet of you. I'm really hoping you guys can find a way that works for you to help get your little guy back the way you want him! I know it's hard but keep your head up and stick with this forum, they do offer some great info!!
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