|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 26, 2009 8:17:04 GMT -5
Good Morning everyone,
Thank you for all your posts and your support. My husband and I appreciate it. I got a call from the my neighbor, Lily's mom yesterday afternoon and she called me from work, after talking to all her coworkers and mom and dad. So she was told to tell me all kinds of things. Such as: Her veterniary, which we are paying her vet bills they came to 121.00, thank goodness, Lily is on antibiotics and her vet which is at Webster Groves Animal Hospital and they are in that Hoty Toty area that has ban pitbulls, said that we are bad owner's with a bad dog and the only way that Jackie and her dogs will be safe in her own home is if we put Simba down and until then she will need to carry a baseball bat around with her to ward off future attacks, because there will be future attacks, that this is the just the beginning, the dog tasted blood and now will continually want to fight because that is what pitbulls do. This is why I do not go to Webster Groves Animal Hospital anymore. Jackie wishes she lived in a gated community with subdivision rules and assessements, she is not happy living here. Paul and I are just working class people who like dogs more than we like people, so we are from 2 different worlds.
The vet told her to call animal control, get Simba's shot records. I called my vet and they were very supportive as they are helping get Simba adjusted to his new life. We have only had Simba 2 weeks. We have initiated a strict regimeign in this household with Simba, he does not go outside unless we are on the end of the leash. We have called about a fence. Even with the new fence up, I am going to adhere to no off leash time. Jackie wants us to put Simba down. My vet said that we need to nicely let her know that popular opinion at this point is not to put Simba down as he is not showing any people aggression (our vet really liked Simba, and was happy to see him with an owner) and as Mary said, it is a part of life when owning pitbulls that you must be aware what they are capable of, but that is with any dog. I gave Jackie all of my information and told her what Animal Control would be needing if she called them and that she had permission to talk to my vet and go to the appointments with us if necessary. Jackie's dog Lily has had 2 other confrontations that I know of with other dogs. One confrontation Lily was attacked by her mom's German Shepherd, that was something else, my husband Paul not thinking jumped the fence and broke the dogs up, and luckily Paul did not get hurt and then Jackie introduced a puppy into the household and that did not work. So there is a little history here.
Let me know what you think. I wll check in later. Thank you all again so much.
|
|
|
Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 26, 2009 10:25:28 GMT -5
I have one foot out the door but felt the need to reply. I did read your original post, as well.
My opinion here is that Jackie's vet is a moron. The entire "once they taste blood" routine is a myth and anyone practicing veterinary medicine should know better.
My personal opinion (and I've never had this issue) is to make amends with Jackie, which you are doing by paying Lily's vet bills, I would also probably offer a formal apology and blatantly tell her that the incident was YOUR fault, that you will be much more proactive in leash walking and leashed supervision with Simba.
I would completely stay far away from trying to dispell any inaccurate reasons she feels this happened (we want blame removed from Simba, as a dog and as a pit bull) and place it on human/owner error which you are very willing to take.
I would make it very clear to her that you are upset by this incident and that you are saddened that Lily was injured and convince her that it will not happen again. I'd even throw in there that after what "Lily has been through in the past" you wouldn't want her to become defensive around other dogs. (Slight jab but if she has easily forgotten about the past incidences with the other dogs, she needs to be reminded politely).
I would also take her a little goodie basket with dog treats and toys, nothing major, just a gesture. Make it hard for Jackie to think that you haven't done everything you could to make up for it.
I would also print some simple (not technical or over the top) fliers on breed information, dispelling myths and the difference between DA and HA. Her vet told her that Simba will attack again and implied that he will go after humans. So Jackie needs to know, from a reliable source that dog aggression is not human aggression.
As for you, I completely agree that from now on, you should walk Simba on a leash at all times when he is outdoors and if he is reactive towards other dogs on sight, double leash him on two collars.
I would also begin to work heavily on attention training and hire a trainer who specializes in DA dogs to come to your home and if you do, make sure that Jackie knows this. It will further show your commitment and desire to make changes if she knows you hired a professional.
In all relations with the neighbor be friendly, calm and listen. You are doing damage control now and even though she may seem hoity toity and convinced Simba should die, with the proper responses and actions, you can make a difference here. I also wouldn't be surprised if Lily is one with some issues. Truly stable GSDs are getting harder to find these days.
|
|
|
Post by tank on Feb 26, 2009 11:16:53 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if Jackie exaggerated about what happened in some way to her vet and /or the vet was just trying to make her feel better by validating her fears. Any vet should know that the "once they taste blood" thing is a myth. Just make sure you do right by Jackie and her dog, for the safety of your dog as well. Make sure she knows this will be a one time occurrence.
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 27, 2009 8:13:13 GMT -5
Thank you for your post. We have paid the vet bills for Lilly. I am guessing that Jackie does not want to talk to us, she would not answer her door yesterday. So I left her an apologetic letter and the check in her mail box. I also called an animal law lawyer here in st louis who said he would work with us if we needed any type of assistance. So now we just wait. Simba is doing good, I am so ready for his visit at the vet for neutering. I am definately ready to put this behind us. This is my first go around with dog agression and I hope it is my last. We have called our friends who all dog people and told them what happened and have them to come visit so we can monitor his social skills They have all had dogs so they know a little bit about what they are coming over too, they are not bringing their dogs! Simba has been real good with the vet, every other dog at the vet, and every other dog in the neigborhood, it is just this issue with Lilly. Our friend has a pitbull, Tigger. Onyx and Tigger are friends. They have play days, but we may not be able to do that any more. Thank you all so much for your advice, kind words and support. I know I would not have made it through this without all of you. thank you again.
|
|
|
Post by maryellen on Feb 27, 2009 9:12:27 GMT -5
excellent advise Jessica.
pmccarthy, please go out and buy every book you can about the pitbull breed. dog aggression can never be trained out, only managed with obedience .. you must always be on your toes.. you should also double up your fence if possible, with another fence a few feet in from the existing fence, dig it deep and put concrete in as well, so that he cant dig out.. make sure the second fence is at least 7 feet high, and put hotwire on the top of the 2nd fence to discourage him from jumping over it.. a jolt will deter him from clearing that second fence. double fences will protect that he cant get over them both ..
|
|
|
Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 27, 2009 15:22:20 GMT -5
I find it interesting that you say that Simba has not had his issue before, only with Lily. That sort of rings volumes here. As I said, it sounds like Lily has some issues of her own. Still doesn't shift responsibility but I'm not entirely convinced that because of this incident that Simba needs to be dubbed DA across the board. Like people, dogs don't like every other dog they meet. No particular reason sometimes. I'd worry about isolating him from other dogs, particularly dogs he has a good history with. He will benefit from socializing as long as it's play and not iffy behaviors. Unless you think you would be really nervous (which dogs pick up on) I'd continue playdates with his buddies. As far as the fence, that would be yet another impression that you are taking this seriously and taking preventative measures. But I strongly suggest that he always be supervised while in it. It would be a real shme if Jackie keeps her head stuck up her butt b/c this situation could have been very different had it happened with another owner and one not so concerned as you are. She should be appreciative of your efforts and at the very least acknowledge them.
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Feb 27, 2009 16:16:25 GMT -5
I'd also think that Jackie could have cut you some SLACK, considering the fact that you JUST GOT Simba, and he came from an irresponsible home that was allowing him to get loose and roam the neighborhood, and you specifically took him in to PREVENT situations like this. It's not like you've had him for months or years and keep allowing him to get into trouble.
I can understand being upset that my dog was attacked, but people have got to use their brains and be reasonable about things, as well. And I second the thought that Jackie's vet is a moron. "Taste for blood"??? BAH!
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 27, 2009 17:23:47 GMT -5
Thank you so much, I was heartbroken to think we may not ever get to have play dates!! But I was afraid to voice that concern. My husband and I were really worried about the isolation thing. Simba and Onyx are becoming friends. Everytime we go to do something with Simba he looks like he thinks he is going to get into trouble. And Onyx is like "WHAT NOW?" Last night they slept together, we did not separate them, I know that goes against the grain, but they cry when they are separated. Simba is in for some mild socializing this weekend, then a little more next weekend and when his foot heals we will be walking in public on a leash, with 2 leads, to test the water a bit. thank you so much.
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 27, 2009 23:49:04 GMT -5
Hey Hey,
Simba had his first visitors tonite, and made 2 new friends. Human friends that is. We are introducing him to our friends first so we can all get to know him and the prepare ourselves for doggie playday and what we should do and when, and if we should do it. I hate to ask this of you all you have all been so great at advising and support with the Lilly deal, what do you suggest about the socializing with our friends dog. Be honest we can handle it. It will be a little bit before he meets any other dogs, we want our Simba to be able to know our friends when he sees and hears their voice. We will hopefully find a good trainer soon. Have you all heard about DogTown here in St. Louis? They have been rehabilitating Michael Vicks dogs and adopting them out. We are going to call there tomorrow and see who they recommend for us Simba and Onyx, we have do this together. Keeping your prayers and positive energy coming. We just don't want to go to fast.
|
|
|
Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 27, 2009 23:59:31 GMT -5
Dogtown is the name of the show which highlights the Vick dogs at Best Friends sanctuary in Utah. It's not in St. Louis.
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 28, 2009 0:04:59 GMT -5
Oh a friend of my told me that they were here in St. Louis and gave me a number to call? I wonder if they are connected then? I will have to ask her. She told me to call them for reference for a trainer. Huh? It was a 314 #
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 28, 2009 0:06:07 GMT -5
I will ask her tomorrow and let you know what I find out.
|
|
|
Post by emilys on Feb 28, 2009 0:12:54 GMT -5
The best way for 2 dogs to meet is on neutral ground. Meet in a quiet park and take a walk with the dogs on opposite sides of the people (not next to each other). Let them just get used to each other's smell and presence. If they seem calm around each other, you can let them get closer, and gradually sniff each other (butt end, not face end). If you see any stiffening of postures, calmly move them away from each other.
But why rush? Wait until you know your dog better.
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 28, 2009 0:18:34 GMT -5
Oh yeah there will be no rushing for this. We have A LOT more dog socializaiton visits before any of that.
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Feb 28, 2009 0:21:51 GMT -5
o.k. bamapitbullmom I just found the blog with the Dog Town and dog whisperer. My husband watches the dog whisperer, but I have never watched either one. I thought when she said dog town she was speaking of a kennel here in dogtown, which is slang name of a municiapality (sp) here in St. Louis. I will check that out.
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Mar 1, 2009 11:35:04 GMT -5
O.K. I talked to my vet and she referred us to Dogtown, which is a place here in St. Louis, not affiliated with that show. That is confusing. They are one of the places that she recommended taking Simba to for training. They work with pitbulls, so we are going to call tomorrow and get a time set up to take him in. Our vet said that she really only recommends 2 trainers here in St. Louis to work with pitbulls. St. Louis City and St. Louis County are so different. It has been recommended to us to use a electric fence with a shock collar, but we are sticking with what we have been recommended here on this site and stay away from any type of "no pain no gain' training. So, if worse comes to worse we will take the best advice and put it together, read our books, and ask you all questions if you don't mind. Onyx and Simba are going to Grandma's today for roast and vegetables, probably with just sprinklings of dog food. Because you know, dog food is for dogs! He loves his Grandma, so we will see how he does on her turf.
This stereotype is difficult, more than I realized. I hope we like our choice of trainers.
We also found out that Jackie has had problems in the past with the neighbor on the other side her and their dogs. All I know is we are leash bound! Thank you all so much for being so equipped for these situations. I do not know how you all knew so much from my posts, but I am glad that you offered your opinions and advice. Thank you. We are working hard in St. Louis, but feeling better. Thank you Thank you. And most of all Simba thanks you for making his life better, now for Onyx the jury might still be out! She is doing fine. We do not think that animal control will be called after finding out about the problems in the past with Jackie, as I guess all that would be disclosed with animal control, because I would disclose it, if no one else did. I hate to be that way, but the facts are the facts, and the facts do not excuse what happened to Jackie, but it does somewhat ease my mind if we are not the first neighbors to encounter such a situation. So, keep your postive energy and thoughts coming.
|
|
|
Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 2, 2009 8:26:16 GMT -5
Hmm, from what I understand "Dog town" is an area of St. Louis. Is there a website for the specific trainers you are considering? Good for you for steering clear of shock collars. Worst idea ever. There's information out there if you feel better arming yourself with counter info if any trainer recommends one. Start with www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm as a member of the No Shock Collar Coalition, I cannot fathom an instance to even consider using one on a dog. Have you looked into the training offered through the Humane Society of Missouri?
|
|
|
Post by RealPitBull on Mar 2, 2009 9:51:10 GMT -5
I'm also a member of the No Shock Collar Coalition! I'm proud of Pam for deciding against their use! They could very likely actually make Simba MORE aggressive towards other dogs since he could learn to associate the shock with another dog, hence increasing his fear/anxiety around them.
|
|
|
Post by crystalbbr on Mar 2, 2009 23:02:48 GMT -5
I just wanted to say kudos to you for deciding against the shock collars and electric fence!
|
|
|
Post by pmccarthy on Mar 3, 2009 8:03:34 GMT -5
I have never used anything like that even with my mentally unstable dog. Wouldn't even know where to go buy one or what they look like. I have never really thought much about shock collars or anything of the sort, Simba had some hair missing from his neck and there was a scabbed over sore on his neck when we brought him home. So far we do know what we are not going to do and working on what we are going to do. I hope that trainer calls back, I think I will go google him and see what happens. I will post the information as soon as I get it.
|
|