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Post by mcgregor on Mar 3, 2009 10:22:44 GMT -5
I agree that your dog and all dogs should be leashed and fenced in at all times..... dog aggression is not human aggression, there is no cure for dog aggression but it can be trained and controlled..... My yogi is never allowed outside without a leash , he is not too friendly with strange dogs, I have built a six foot fence, pitbulls can climb their way out but since my dog is close to 200 lbs, I doubt he can climb with all that weight but I still waatch him when outside in the yard and eventually when the snows get too high 10 feet etc , the darn white stuff accumulates up to the top of the fence and I have to make sure it is not actually that high as yet but if it is Ill simply shovel it out,sigh..... better to always be at caution than sorry..... owning a pitbull is an everyday chore to make sure he is safe and out of trouble...... this is the numbero uno reason why pitbulls are not for everyone, one must always have the time and strenght of mind and body to withstand the rigors of our lovable pitbulls.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 3, 2009 10:31:47 GMT -5
..... My yogi is never allowed outside without a leash , he is not too friendly with strange dogs, I have built a six foot fence, pitbulls can climb their way out but since my dog is close to 200 lbs, I doubt he can climb with all that weight but I still waatch him when outside in the yard Close to 200lbs?? Yogi is supposed to be a pit bull at this weight?
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 3, 2009 12:52:50 GMT -5
..... My yogi is never allowed outside without a leash , he is not too friendly with strange dogs, I have built a six foot fence, pitbulls can climb their way out but since my dog is close to 200 lbs, I doubt he can climb with all that weight but I still waatch him when outside in the yard Close to 200lbs?? Yogi is supposed to be a pit bull at this weight? I think we've established that Yogi is probably an AmBull or mix, and that McGregor's weight estimate may be a LITTLE on the high end ;D I know he said next time he brings Yogi for a check up, he'll be sure to report back with his actual weight.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Mar 3, 2009 13:01:40 GMT -5
Oh yeah...I remember that convo now.
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Post by pmccarthy on Mar 8, 2009 8:52:41 GMT -5
Good Morning all,
The 6 foot fence is up and we are working on the double fence. Our neighbor did call animal control and we were served with a citation. We thought it was the end of the world, BUT listen to this: We were served on Friday and told to call immediately, so we did, at 3:00 in the afternoon, waited and waited, no phone call back on Friday. So we freaked all night long wondering what was going to happen. On Saturday Animal Control called back and we explained what happened and that we have had Simba a short time, and what has been done and what we have been advised to do, yadda yadda, the whole story. Animal control was very receptive and not judgmental at all. We told them that if he had to be quarnatined that our vet wanted to hold Simba, but we were all fearful of putting him in a cage for 10 days at such a critical stage of his moving around and finally having a family. Animal control agreed and said that would set him back and not move anyone forward and that animal control usually only quarantines when a dog bites a human. Animal Control asked for his rabies tag number and then thanked us for taking this responsibility on and that everything was being done that could be done and they were satisfied with our response and that they are considering this issue resolved. We told animal control that they were welcome to come and do an in home visit, but let them know that we were in the early stages of socializing and still getting to know Simba. I should have got the ladies name, but she that an in home visit was not necessary at this time but thanks for the invite. Paul told her that he was taking every opputunity he could to introduce the dog to all types of people and an educated person would be well welcomed. We start training on the 17th. And will continue to read and learn about dogs and communication. Has anyone else had experience with animal control?
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Post by pmccarthy on Mar 8, 2009 8:58:07 GMT -5
I agree that your dog and all dogs should be leashed and fenced in at all times..... dog aggression is not human aggression, there is no cure for dog aggression but it can be trained and controlled..... My yogi is never allowed outside without a leash , he is not too friendly with strange dogs, I have built a six foot fence, pitbulls can climb their way out but since my dog is close to 200 lbs, I doubt he can climb with all that weight but I still waatch him when outside in the yard and eventually when the snows get too high 10 feet etc , the darn white stuff accumulates up to the top of the fence and I have to make sure it is not actually that high as yet but if it is Ill simply shovel it out,sigh..... better to always be at caution than sorry..... owning a pitbull is an everyday chore to make sure he is safe and out of trouble...... this is the numbero uno reason why pitbulls are not for everyone, one must always have the time and strenght of mind and body to withstand the rigors of our lovable pitbulls. I believe in the better safe than sorry mind set. Simba will not go outside without a leash even when double fence goes up. I told my husband what Mary had said, always remember their strength and what can happen. I do not believe any dog bite to a human or another dog is minor, but we got lucky this time, and we cannot allow another time.
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Post by andreacassel on Mar 9, 2009 12:46:03 GMT -5
Animal control here (Shreveport / Bossier City, LA) is filled with alot of people that truly love animals. Most of the workers are part of one of the two dog clubs. I would not worry to much about them - especially not if you have already spoken to them and given them a good overview of what you are working with. I know animal control agents get a horrible rap - but I can't think that anyone would want to euth an animal that the owners are truly wanting to work with.
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 10, 2009 15:00:39 GMT -5
WOW, Pam! How wonderful that Animal Control was so receptive and reasonable. I hope this whole fiasco is now behind you and you can begin to move forward, lessons learned. AC varies greatly from location to location. Some are better than others.
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Post by pmccarthy on Apr 3, 2009 7:29:06 GMT -5
Well good morning all! We have been very busy with Simba. The training school that Simba spent 2 weeks at was the Tom Rose Training School. They worked with our obvious issues and we still have a long way to go. Simba is glad to be home though! Our trainer really had a lot of insight for us with Simba. He said that Simba had showed signs of being taken away from his mother to soon and then possibly bottle feed for the remainder of the time. And the worst thing for us to hear is that they weren't sure but saw signs that he was beat as a puppy and then crated for the majority of his lifetime and he is only a year and 4 months! They said that this is sometimes commonly done for a dog that is going to be trained to fight, the dog never gets any corrections from his mother and therefore will have a dominant personality, and then he will progress from that point, but then we got Simba in the interim. So now we will have to exericse patience and consistancy in our training. We are just chillin' and spending time with him and our other dog Onyx. The 2 are doing real good. We have learned some triggers, I am sure not all of them. But he definately has a terriotrial trigger, but that too can be common. So when people come to the house he is on his lead with his pinch collar and automatically revert to "kennel settings and commands" it seems to give him a security and he does not have a question of what is expected from him. If he does not calm down, then he goes into the bedroom and we bring him out again after he calms down, and repeat the process. After the kennel we are leary of introducing other dogs, we need more time with him before we do that. We are going to try a walk this weekend if the weather permits. There was a lot more information, I have to get ready for work but I will tell you more what we learned with his interaction at the kennel and other dogs, it wasn't all negative but it woke us up and we are changing our routine a bit. I cannot wait to hear your advice when I get the whole story posted. Talk to you to soon!
Pam
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Apr 3, 2009 10:22:19 GMT -5
Hi Pam! Thank you for updating, I've been wondering how he's been doing. I must very honestly say that I am a bit saddened that he's being trained using traditional methods. Tom Rose is reknowned for force methods and I must say I would hesitate to believe any assumption about his past. How in the world a trainer (or anyone) can actually assume or imply or actually state that based on observed behaviors that a dog was taken away from the dam and bottlefed is beyond me. And I don't think I've ever heard of a dogfighter use a crate. (?) Also, pinch collars are painful. I don't say all of this to question your motivation and intentions to work with Simba, I know that you have his best interests in mind and that you deeply care for him and are trying to make him more comfortable in his world. I do, however, hope that you choose other methods and another trainer to work with you with sensible and positive methods. I see so many times owners who employ traditional trainers and these methods oftentimes make things worse. I hope I don't offend you, that is not my intention, I simply want to give you feedback. Please do give further information about the advice you've been given. Also, did you send Simba for board and train for the two weeks?
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Post by pmccarthy on Apr 8, 2009 18:01:48 GMT -5
Hey there, oh no please speak freely to us, that is why we are here on your site. We would like to make as few mistakes as possible and we are such rookies at dealing with these issues. All of our other dogs would work for food, if you know what I mean! This how we think, (are you sitting down? Please be gentle but firm when resonding)! When we make mistakes with Simba we hope that we love HIM enough for HIM to forgive us!
I thought pinch collars were the closest correction you could get to a mother's correction? That is why I chose that. Did I cause harm? We basically did what was suggested to us, our consulation was horrible, Simba was acting up and we could barley talk to the trainer and a man that worked there had to help us restrain Simba from other dogs. Simba stayed at the school for close to 2 weeks for training. We went to visit and they showed us what he had learned and worked with us on his commands, they taught him a sit-stay and a down-stay. Then they taught him to walk on leash without pulling. You should have heard the rukus that went on when they would take Simba from his kennel to the training room. One time I asked the man if everything was o.k. It was recommended to us by our trainer to not have Simba around other dogs, he is triggered more by bigger dogs than by smaller dogs, but he suggested not to take any chances. I agree. June 10 will mark his 3 months anniversay of being neurtered and the vet said that his testorone levels should drop by then, so I am tracking that!!
Now, the first week home was Simba testing us, he was telling us he will not sit, he will not down. We issued the corrections and he RELUCTANLY, would sit but not stay, he would RELUCTANTLY down, but not stay. And he would not. So we were correcting and having a small battle of wits. He is a very smart dog and is collar smart at this time already.
When we first got him I noticed he did not wag his tail very much and it was always in a down position, not tucked between his legs, but in a strange stance I thought. He never played with Onyx with his butt up in the air, ears up, tail wagging, which Onyx always has going on. He was food agressive with Onyx, but that was because he was not fed! (We have not seen any signs of food agression in the last 2 weeks)! Also, he had a look, not blank, it's hard to explain, no emotion or personality, I don't even know if that explains it right. When we would come home from work, it was more or less like, oh good, I am glad you here you can feed me now. Little bit of love, but controlled.
Just a couple nights ago we were sitting in the living room playing with the dogs and Simba came into the middle of the play butt up in the air, tail wagging, and a happy face (does that make sense)? When we came home today his tail was wagging and he was not jumping on us he sat down for all his lovin's and then his whole butt started wagging, it was funny. Now when he walks his tail is up and you can see a little gleam in his eye.
We called animal control (because they told us to) to give them an update of the training and how we were doing and what we were trying to accomplish, our case worker (I guess that what we call them) was surprised that we even called back, she returned our call on a Sunday. But that was alright, so I think we are done with Animal Control, they were very nice. She said that most people would not even go through what we were going through or even admit that there may be a problem. My husband told the lady (I don't even know her name) that she was welcome to come by check things out for herself if she would like and she said that it was not necessary.
Well we will have to keep working with a professional trainer probably for the next year, this is just basically for me and my husband's own benefit, to help Simba, he likes structure. St. Louis has very few trainer's that work with pit bulls. I will call around though and see what we can find, if you have any contacts in St. Louis let me know. I did not think that a pinch collar was a "forced" method. That was my ignorance. Thanks again.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 13, 2009 9:59:13 GMT -5
Pinch collars are VERY aversive. They work because they cause pain and discomfort to the dog - the dog pulls, you jerk the leash to teach him that pulling causes him pain; you ask the dog to sit, and he doesn't so he gets a jerk again (a 'correction') and experiences pain so he learns he better sit next time to avoid pain. It's just a fact - that's how pinch/prong collars work. If they didn't cause pain, they would be useless. You should be working with a trainer that can show you how to use positive reinforcement training - training that teaches a dog what TO do instead of focusing on what NOT to do. The sort of training you are doing works to suppress behavior, and very often can make aggression worse. Using a princh collar on a dog-aggressive dog is one of the worst things you can do. You also need a trainer who will COME TO YOUR HOME and teach YOU how to work with your dog in the environment in which you all live. I'm not a fan of these '14 day miracle' board and train programs. They are EXTREMELY hard on the dog, and leave much to be desired as far as helping the dog's guardians learn to better handle and understand their dog. Here is a trainer I found on the Truly Dog Friendly Trainers website, who is in St Louis: www.headoverpaws.net/index.htmlAnd some trainers listed on the Karen Pryor Academy (a highly regarded school for dog trainers) website: Here's a program offered by the HS of MO (in St Louis) www.hsmo.org/m_obedience/index.phpand www.dogs-unleashed.com/
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