Millan & His Critics

[RealPitBull]

I love KC Dog Blog, I really do. But this blog....ugh. UGH!!!!!

btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/03/cesar-millan-his-dog-and-his-critics.html


I just don't see the above listed 7 "good things" that Millan does as being a good enough excuse to turn a blind eye to the abuse he purpetuates.

NO one in the legit behavioral fields would agree that because Millan works with aggressive, mishandled dogs, he must use punishment. Positive punishment is known to negatively affect already existing behavior problems, and actually increase the chances of aggressive behavior. People in the field doing studies, people with actual credentials, are demonstrating that R+ is the best way to treat aggression problems, or even very carefully laid out R-protocols (reference Kellie Snider's Constructional Aggression Treatment) that involve under-threshold work and non-physical procedures. Rolling, pinning, scruffing, kicking, poking dogs and constantly working them over-threshold is just NOT a good way to train dogs. There really is nothing to refute there unless you wish to turn a blind eye to fact.

People who aren't in the field don't know what's going on behind the scenes, aren't getting to see the fallout from Millan's methods. Maybe ask some trainers in CA. about how "great" a job Millan does at "rehabbing" dogs........

And no one says Millan's methods never work. He's using the laws of learning. Negative reinforcement and positive punishment are continually used in dog training because they CAN often work, at least intially. But that doesn't mean there isn't fallout later, that doesn't mean there aren't kinder, BETTER ways. Punishment as a matter of course is DEEPLY embedded into our society. We don't reward people for good behavior, we punish them for bad. Our dogs get treated the same way.

Also remember another reason why punishment is used so often: punishment is HIGHLY REINFORCING TO THE PUNISHER. The person punishing is being reinforced for doing so, and hence is likely to continue doing it. This is one of the scariest things about this sort of training. It usually escalates. No one is exempt from the laws of learning.

(As an aside, interested parties might want to read Sidman's Coercion and it's Fallout.)

To me, at the end of the day, it's a pretty simple breakdown - take advice from people who have degrees, certifications, credentials, can back up what they do and say with science; or take advice from a reality TV star with no credentials who has been discredited NUMEROUS times.

For me, the final nail in the coffin was the video of the wolfdog kicked into reacting, biting Millan (because he has absolutely zero understanding of how to keep dogs under-threshold and avoid getting bitten); then hanging the dog til he practically passed out (and appears to have peed on himself). You can clearly see the blue tongue of the dog in the video after he is laying flat on the concrete, beathing heavily. Then the audacity of this guy to state, "Now he is relaxing".

People love Millan, and hey, he tells people, "Dogs need exercise". So I guess it's all good.

www.beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com

[kcdogblog]

Mary,

Sorry that I disappointed you with the post. I guess I see the vast majority of what he does as 'punishment'...and I've never seen him kick a dog in a way that would be harmful. I confess that the one episode with the wolf dog I've not actually seen.

Most dog trainers I know use a combination of corrective training (negative reinforcement) and treat training (positive reinforcement). I guess on some level, given that he is dealing with some of the more extreme cases, I sort of expect some of the his corrections to be on a bit more of the extreme end.

And no, I'm not saying "it's all good", nor am I saying there isn't a better way.

Just that there is a better way to approach educating people without putting Millan in this strange category of evil-doers in the world that then dismisses many of the things he says which are actually good messages that are reaching a lot more people than you and I have the capacity to do.

[RealPitBull]

I hear ya, Brent. We don't have to agree all the time. ;-)

Do you know about the meeting with AHA and Millan? There is a big to-do about it. He also just threatened Dogstar Daily with a lawsuit. He's got quite the legal team backing him up.

IMO, the "good" things Millan does and says are so mundane and basic and ANY trainer worth even just a fraction of his or her salt would be saying the same things. On the flip side, the other stuff Millan does is SO bad that it just completely cancels out the good he does.

I'm sure Ami Moore who strapped three shock collars on a small dog and got taken to court over it said SOMEthing good and positive I could agree with her on at some point or another. I doubt there is any trainer ANYwhere no matter how bad who isn't saying SOMEthing I could agree with. It's not what the person is doing RIGHT (even serial killers are nice sometimes), it's what they are doing WRONG that counts when we have to make decisions about who to support and promote.

BTW, Moore's case got thrown out of court. Not because there wasn't proof she strapped three collars on that poor dog, but because the judge determined there is no specific body of work in dog training that would suggest what she did is abusive or inappropriate. That's the profession, for ya. It's a free for all, and pretty much anything goes.

My main problem is and always has been that Millan pretends to be an expert but is a complete outcast in the field because he refuses to educate himself or get up to speed on all the modern methods. It's like going to a doctor that is still practicing 1920's medicine. WHY!!!

[kcdogblog]

Sure, any trainer COULD say the same things...and yet, none of them are reaching Millions of people doing so, getting interviewed by the Miami Herald speaking out about their BSL, and getting photos of he and his loving 'pit bull' in People Magazine. He's influencing a lot of people that other trainers are not. Not all of it is good, but a huge amount of it is.

I'd love to go to the AHA/Cesar thing....I think it would be really interesting....although I'm pretty sure I would leave saying that I didn't think that either of them was completely right and that the truth was in the middle

[RealPitBull]

He's also reaching millions of people with really crappy information that is very damaging to dogs. Trust me, those of us taking clients in are dealing with the backlash.

Did you see that ep with him setting that poor female Pit Bull with a history of dog-aggression up to fail with a group of dogs? He's rambling on about how such a situation is likely to trigger a fight and wouldn't ya know, a fight breaks out. Lots of close ups, with one Pit Bull hanging onto the bloodied lip of the other. Mmm hmmm....real good for the breed. Way to GO.

I don't see how Millan is anything other than an overpaid, know-nothing celeb (a REALITY star, at that, and we all know reality shows aren't REAL) who likes to pander to the appetites for drama of his audience. If he could make tons of money doing boring shaping with under-threshold dogs, believe me he'd do it. But no one would watch that cuz it IS boring. The excitement in seeing aggressive dogs, Millan getting bitten, and then subduing (read: overpowering and intimidating) them is what gives him his captured audience.

Maybe I'm missing something.

[suziriot]

Mar 4, 2010 17:23:21 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

IMO, the "good" things Millan does and says are so mundane and basic and ANY trainer worth even just a fraction of his or her salt would be saying the same things. On the flip side, the other stuff Millan does is SO bad that it just completely cancels out the good he does.
...
My main problem is and always has been that Millan pretends to be an expert but is a complete outcast in the field because he refuses to educate himself or get up to speed on all the modern methods. It's like going to a doctor that is still practicing 1920's medicine. WHY!!!

Mary, you've summed up how I see the issue. As Drayton said in his blog post, people certainly have the right to their own opinions and also have the right to ignore science and research. But when it comes to a living creature's well being, "I feel like this works for me" is just not acceptable. It may work for you, but is it really working for the animal? And in the end, is it really working for you when these methods ultimately fail with dangerous or tragic results? Like you always say Mary, just because we CAN does not mean we SHOULD. And yes, we desperately need better oversight of animal training techniques and trainer certification requirements. It should be a profession with all the appropriate governance and guidelines, not a hobby or a circus act.

We don't all have to agree all the time. I think RPBF is itself a perfect example of how we are able to have a variety of opinions yet still remain respectful and friendly. However, this issue is not about us or our opinions. To me, it is an all or nothing issue because we're talking about how we treat and handle living beings that we've domesticated and bred to be dependent on us. The dog/human relationship is one I value too much to treat lightly. I feed my dogs certain foods because research tells me that it will make them healthy and prevent unwanted diseases and/or conditions. I train my dogs using certain methods because science tells me it will produce the behaviors I desire, discourage behaviors I do not desire, will not harm them or me, and will make them feel rewarded, secure and happy.

I also love KC Dog Blog, Brent. I really appreciate your good work and particularly your support of Mutts-n-Stuff throughout the whole HSUS/Fay thing.

[RealPitBull]

I want to say too, that the dogs on Millan's show show signs of incredible stress. Millan calls it "calm submissive" and the owners just like it cuz the dog isn't doing that unwanted behavior. But they ARE stressed (shut down). And sadly most people (and even Millan) can't read dog body language (that's one reason he gets bitten all the time). They don't see the signs of stress. And for what it's worth, optimum learning cannot take place when dogs are dealing with stress and subsequent heightened cortisol levels - it's scientific fact that stress impedes learning.

All that jerking, kicking, pushing, pulling, and exposure to frightening stimuli over threshold heightens stress and cortisol levels rise and dogs aren't at their prime capacity for learning.

When we know these things as FACT, and we know we can teach dogs new behaviors in ways that don't cause pain, fear, stress, why on EARTH would we stick with the crap methods that Millan uses?

The bottom line is there is NO governance in dog training and behavior modification. If professionals in other fields governed by licensing and regulation were operating at a level equivalent to which Millan does, they would be out of a job.

[emilys]

the notion that only Cesar's methods can "cure" an over the top aggressive dog (and that he's saving zillions of such dogs) is just bizarre to me. He obviously can STOP the behavior because he is a strong man. But he's not CHANGING any behavior.

[RealPitBull]

Mar 4, 2010 20:38:20 GMT -5 emilys said:

the notion that only Cesar's methods can "cure" an over the top aggressive dog (and that he's saving zillions of such dogs) is just bizarre to me. He obviously can STOP the behavior because he is a strong man. But he's not CHANGING any behavior.

I'm with you, Emily. I don't get it!

[adoptapitbull]

I really don't watch him on TV often, but I did catch an episode the other day.

This GSD was attacking the family's other dog. Maybe a 40lb terrier mutt. What did they do? Well part of it was that they muzzled the GSD and let it try to attack the mutt! This poor dog was probably sh!tt!ng his pants when the GSD started trying to kill him. CM said he had to see it to stop it. OK, I can think of a few better ways than to let the GSD go after the little mutt. Yes, he was muzzled so he couldn't bite, but that little mutt didn't know that! I thought it was so, so stupid to stress that little dog out like that.

[RealPitBull]

That is outright animal abuse. CM had to "see" it to understand what was happening? What a crock of sh1t. It makes for better ratings is what he SHOULD have said.

And that poor little terrier may very likely develop an aggression problem of his own.

REAL trainers work to AVOID ever putting a dog over threshold. We don't need to SEE the aggression to help create a calm, well-behaved dog. In fact, if we don't see the aggression, and help the owners understand how to avoid the aggression while teaching new behaviors and molding better emotional attitudes, we know we did our job.