Found out some interesting info on Bruiser

[shay19]

So I think just about everyone knows that I work at a doggy day care, well just a little over a month ago Bruiser and Aida did their interview. Aida passed with flying colors-Bruiser did not.

The people working had told me he had gone after a dog 3 times unprovoked- which did not sound like my goofy, happy boy at all. But I had my fiance come pick him up and he hasn't been back since. I had been waiting this whole time to get ahold of a wonderful trainer that works specifically with "aggressive" dogs. So we took him up Saturday.

She introduced him to 4 different dogs (male and female, 1 unneutered). He was completely fine with the first 3, then she came walking out with a huge "pit bull" (he's definately too big to fit into the standards do I assume he's a mix?) and Bruiser was fine with him too.... until this dog named "Tough" made his stance bigger and taller, so of course Bruiser did too.

So this whole time we were there thinking he had a bad behavior problem, when come to find out he's just doing what he was bred to do- not back down from a fight.

So here's the part that irritated me... We recently had a Malamute attack and puncture 2 dogs in 1 day, he's only suspended for a week cause we know that he can be grumpy, now we caught the fight fast but this malamute is quick and big... My boy got in a fight, and I assume that the people in the yard missed the other dogs signs (especially since he never made 1 jesture to the other dogs the trainer had that he was dominant and wanted to fight), and had to go to a trainer and hasn't been back in over a month. He didn't make one mark on the dog he fought or anything, they caught it fast.

That just doesn't seem right to me, the owner made exceptions for a dog that is known to start fights and he's still allowed to come to day care, but my boy who is just being a "pit bull" just doing what has been bred into them for years and he's not allowed back until he goes to training. Seems kind of biased to me...

I don't know though, I'm just ranting I guess.

[sugar]

I just posted a story about two Malamutes ripping a small dog to shreads in NYC not too long ago (they also had previously attacked another small dog). MaryEllen pointed out that Malamutes have very high prey drives and shouldn't be around little creatures. Sounds like your place is being a little discriminatory against Bruiser (the pitbull) against a dog that has started other fights (a non-pitbull).

[maryellen]

PIT BULLS SHOULD NOT BE IN DOGGY DAYCARE OR DOG PARKS PERIOD. i dont care how cold they are, they dont belong there. by taking Bruiser to doggy day care you are setting him up to FAIL... its not fair to him or the other dogs. hell Aida shouldnt be there either if she is a pit bull.. whether pure or pit mix, ANY bully breed should NEVER go to group daycare or a dog park. and there is NO WAY you can "train" out his DA.. you can manage it but it will never go away. the more you let him go to group sessions where he gets into fights the worse he will get with strange dogs.. and malamutes will not keep fighting like a bully breed will. mals will eventually STOP (even with a small critter /dog /cat they will stop when the animal is dead) a bully breed will NOT stop fighting.. mals have high prey drives just like huskies , they are not dog park/doggy daycare material.

i honestly WISH dog daycares and dog parks did BAN bully breeds for group sessions as its nothing but a headline waiting to happen..

and there is no such thing as an unprovoked attack.. ALL dogs show body language, whether its a slight movement of tail/body/ lips/tongue/ stink eye, they all give a warning, the people at the day care just didnt SEE the warning..

for example, my gsd is highly DA. she gives ONLY a slight warning, right before she goes to attack another dog she SLIGHTLY opens her mouth a crack, that is IT.. my dog trainer noticed it and told me about it.. as i kept missing the signs as i didnt see any.. she is also good at giving a sneaky stink/whale eye.. i am positive the other dogs bruiser got into a fight with either he or the other dog gave a signal of some sort that the other dog didnt like and that was all it took.

[michele5611]

I agree with ME. Pit Bulls in my opinion do not belong in doggy day care group settings or dog parks for a multitude of reasons. I have said it before but I am not a fan of dog parks for any breed. I am not a fan of any environment where dogs are just "turned loose" with the hopes that everything will be nicey nice and the doggy day care employee or the dog owner will be paying attention and even if they are paying attention that does not guarantee that all will go smoothly.

Shay if I remember correctly you were bringing the pups there because the only other option was keeping them outside for an extended period of time unsupervised, which I agree was not a good situation. Is that still the case?

[sugar]

Yeah, thats why I thought she was bringing her pups there. She had mentioned it was more done out of either the dogs stay outside at home while she's at work, or she can take them with her. I don't know how much actual interaction the dogs have with the general doggie public. My comment about the Malamutes was more geared towards not understanding why they would let that dog continue going there if he had sparked previous fights.

[michele5611]

Sugar I totally got what you were saying!

[adoptapitbull]

I'm confused....

Is this Doggy Day Care a glorified dog park with supervision? Or is it more of a boarding facility where they remain in their kennels during the day and are let out for potty breaks every few hours? If it's a "run loose and play" place, then do not take them back!

If I take my dogs to a boarding facility, I specifically say "Do not let my dogs out with any other dogs. Period." I think if you continue to take both dogs, that has to be the rule.

Don't feel like it's your dog's "fault" that this is happening, either. Pits are known to be DA, so this is not a surprise. The happiest most carefree dog at home is not necessarily the same dog around other dogs. It's sometimes hard to imagine that your dog can act that way, so I can understand how you are surprised. Now you know, so now you have to set up a new scenario for them.

Also keep in mind, that these fights can turn into a big issue for you and your employer. Your employer may completely ban your dogs in fear of losing their reputation and business. If there are known DA dogs allowed to roam free, clients would most likely find another place to go. And, if your dogs hurt or kill another dog, the lawsuit you'd be faced with could make you lose your job, and tons and tons of money. It's just not worth it. If anything happened to an employee when breaking up a fight, you'd be liable for medical bills...which we all know can be crazy expensive!

I think it would be better to leave the pups at home, and pay someone to come and let them out once or twice a day. Paying $10-$20 a day is soooo much cheaper than a lawsuit or ER bills!

[sugar]

Here is the original thread:
therealpitbull.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ot&thread=5544&page=1

From what it seems, if the dogs don't go to work with her they are required to stay outside (as per fiance's parents rules). It wouldn't be wise to keep them outside together unsupervised obviously which is why everyone was happy that her boss was letting her bring the dogs. From one of the posts it seems like they were kept separate from other dogs in a backroom somewhere in the facility.

Just shedding a little light. I guess Shay would but she is probably doing something I should be doing: working.
lol

[michele5611]

Per Adoptapitbull "If I take my dogs to a boarding facility, I specifically say "Do not let my dogs out with any other dogs. Period. I think if you continue to take both dogs, that has to be the rule."


Yes I agree! Shay that is the only way to go if the dogs need to go to the daycare. It is in the best interest for all parties as I am sure you would agree!

[adoptapitbull]

lol Thanks, Sugar!

Yeah, bringing them there seems to be the better option than outside, so long as they stay separate from the other dogs at the facility.

[sugar]

Oct 4, 2010 16:25:44 GMT -5 michele5611 said:

Per Adoptapitbull "If I take my dogs to a boarding facility, I specifically say "Do not let my dogs out with any other dogs. Period. I think if you continue to take both dogs, that has to be the rule."


Yes I agree! Shay that is the only way to go if the dogs need to go to the daycare. It is in the best interest for all parties as I am sure you would agree!

I had the same rule with my last dog (lab/shepard mix). She was not allowed to be let run free with the others because she was very unpredictable with other dogs. I got really mad at this one place because they let her free anyway. they told me she mostly stayed to herself but still, I was angry because of what COULD have happened. I complained to the owner (who I later found out firmly believed ALL dogs should be allowed to run free and play in a big hippie cuddle puddle). Obviously I stopped going there.

[michele5611]

Hippie cuddle puddle....ROFLMAO!!

[maryellen]

the 2 can be outside separated.. separate kennels side by side will work, with secure tops and latches padlocked, this way no escaping will happen, and having the dogs separated will ensure they wont fight if left alone outside . lots of people leave their dogs outside in kennels while they work, they secure the kennel, top bottom etc and get good dog houses and have pails of water outside and have the kennels either in the shade of a tree or use a kennel top .

or the dogs can be brought to a doggy day care BUT not be allowed to play with other dogs.. its pretty simple actually

[shay19]

So now that everyone seems kind of mad at me...

My 2 were only allowed at day care in the back room because they weren't fixed.. After they were fixed I decided to do an interview with them.

I knew there was signs between Bruiser and the other dog, unfortunately I wasn't there to see them. They also never showed me the fight on the recorded camera like they should have.

Now I did what my boss told me and took him to a trainer, where we found out he IS NOT DA. He showed no signs at all that he hated any dogs, he, along with Aida and most "Pit Bulls" I know, simply won't back down from a fight if one is presented to him, which the other dog did to him.

This is a boarding/day care facility, it is free play, they are out for 3 hours, go back into cabins for 1 1/2 hours, etc throughout the day. We always have 1 person for every 15 dogs in camp. So it is quite supervised, and on top of that we have cameras that the people in the fron office watch as well. These dogs are not running around unsupervised. Unfortunately when attention is directed at one dog then often another dog does something it shouldn't i.e get into a fight.

I keep taking Aida because I don't trust any dogs around where I live, almost every one of them is unaltered, aggressive or just flat out rude. At least at my work we ONLY allow dogs that aren't aggressive (with the exception to the Mal, I actually dont know why my boss allows him to come back). Aida is actually extremely well in the yards and gets along with EVERYONE! She has never had one problem and I hope this will help with her socialization. I want Bruiser there as well since he ISN'T DA, and he really needs to learn how to interact with other dogs.

Bruiser will not be back until he goes to training, which starts next week, then I'll try it again.

Now I totally understnad where you all are coming from about these 2 but neither are DA in the slightest, I know this can change. But I'm hoping that this can provide a positive environment. Which it almost always is, we don't get fights very often there. Like I said, I'm only taking them because I can't find any dogs that are decent play mates for them to interact with.

I didn't try to make my work place sound horrible, in fact we are very good. Every other boarding facility will reccomend us to their own customers whenever necessary.

[michele5611]

Shay first off no one is mad at you. We are just trying to give you a better understanding about managing pit bulls . You obviously were trying to do right by your dogs and be responsible by not allowing them to be in the yard. I understand why you need to bring your dogs there and I don't think that anyone was implying that the place you work is bad.

The fact of the matter is pit bulls are dog selective. At the end of the day it is our responsibility to set our dogs up for success which I know you want to do! DA can not be trained out- it can however be managed. Per your own words pit bulls will not back down from a fight so whether Bruiser starts a fight or not is irrelevant as the outcome will always be the same.

Socializing pit bulls is very important but there are ways that can be done in a more controlled environment with the dogs on lead in a small setting.

I can and do maintain responsibly a dog selective pit bull. What that means is that she is never off leash, she does not go to dog parks, and she is separated from other animals when I can not be there to supervise her and she is NEVER left unattended with children period (this should be common practice regardless of the breed).

Nature and nuture both play a part in our dogs behavior and the sooner we accept and recognize this than the sooner we are on our way to collectively being more aware, present, responsible pit bull owners.

I see no reason why Bruiser and Aida can't go back to the day care. Keep them separate from each other and the other dogs and work on socializing them in a small scale environement while on lead.

[adoptapitbull]

Shay,

Like Michele said, we're not mad! It's hard to understand Pit Bull interactions with other dogs. Sometimes they're the best of best buddies, and then a fight breaks loose. It seems like it's out of nowhere! It's just something that as owners, we have to prepare for and be mindful of at all times. This does NOT mean that they can never have play dates or interact with other dogs. This just means that there have to be extremely controlled environments, and all owners must know their dogs and watch for any signs of tension. They are not bad dogs and you are not a bad owner! They just need a bit of extra attention in situations where there are other dogs present, that's all!

[shay19]

That's what I'm trying to do with them, unfortunately, this is the only way I can do it. The people around me either have dog aggressive dogs, are unaltered or the owner's won't allow their dogs to play with "pit bulls". Usually whenever my dogs are there they are either with me, or with one of my good friends Andy, who just loves them and knows them very well.

The day Bruiser got into a fight I had boarded them to see how they did just in case I ever needed a place for them to be. I always tell other employees about them and their signals that they send if they're unhappy with another dog.

I just want them to be able to be happy and socialize with other dogs at my work since I usually work long hours and often dont have the time nor feel safe out walking them whe I get off work. I don't live in a great area, it's better than where I was but still not good.

I will not be taking Bruiser back until he goes to training, which will teach him how to correctly approach dogs, and how to act correctly in that kind of environment. Until then he is stuck at home. Although the trainer said that he could be able to go back before then and we'd just have to keep a closer eye on him. I will be waiting since I don't want him sending signs of fighting without understanding what he's doing.

And as long as it remains positive for Aida then she'll continue going, she hasn't had anything negative there. She actually gets very excited to go, and all around it's helped her alot. Before she started going she wouldn't walk into petsmart, now she walks in extremely happy. This has helped her in more than one way and that's why she continues to go.

I'm hoping it'll do the same for Bruiser, if he ends up not being able to go because it's not helping him then so be it. But until I know for sure we're going to try it again. I'm going to ask my boss to pull up the fight he got into so I can see exactly what happened and let the trainer know. In her own words Bruiser doesn't show any sign of being dog aggressive or selective, he simply will not back down from a fight when presented to him.

[maryellen]

we are not mad at you we are only trying to help and educate you. sorry to say but they DONT need to be with other dogs. period. by you continuing to try to get bruiser to socialize with other dogs you are only setting him up to fail badly. ALL pit bulls have DA in their genes, whether its dormant or active doesnt matter,its still THERE. open your eyes and stop looking behind rainbows, and read up on the breed.. one day bruiser will hurt a dog very badly or kill it, and only then will you fully realize that you have been screwing him up from day one . stop listening to your trainer, DA cant be trained out period. STOP BRINGING BRUISER TO DOGGY DAYCARE TO INTERACT WITH THE OTHER DOGS NOW. why bother going down that road and waiting for an accident to happen?

you can however bring him to work, but dont let him play with any dogs other then aida. that would work out better for him in the long run,this way he wont have any opportunities to finish a challenge should one present itself.

those of us with this breed know enough to not put our dogs in situations that will ruin it for other owners.

i have a pit MIX. rufus is solid in temperment with people, hell when he was younger he got along with 99% of other dogs (except some intact ones and an ex fighting dog my friend had that he went after like an idiot at around a year old) as he got older he got less tolerant of other dogs depending on how they acted. i never ever took him to doggy daycare to romp with other dogs ever, he doesnt need to romp with other dogs, he got to romp with my other dogs that he lived with, and one old foster dog who i would babysit every now and then. that was it. and even then i never allowed all 3 dogs to play together . sure i could have tossed him in dog daycare, and taken my chances, but why even bother? would he have finished a fight? who knows. would he have started a fight? who knows. i do know one thing for sure, i wasnt about to ruin anyones right to own this breed by screwing up with my own dog and allowing an incident to happen.. you see that bruiser wont back down from a possible challenge, so why ruin things and let him keep going to daycare and possibly get into a serious fight and then have major issues after that? it just aint worth it. if he is good with aida, fine, leave it at that. stop trying to fix this, as its only going to get worse if you try to keep him in daycare with other dogs.. just take him there and keep him separate from the other dogs permanently and only let him and aida play together supervised. and dont forget,if he really hurts another dog YOUR job could be on the line as well...

[adoptapitbull]

Oh, and be leary of any trainer who can "train out" DA. Many will make that claim so that you hire them. It's complete BS. If it were true, Pits would have lost their DA issue many years ago. I don't mean to tell you to not train your dog, but don't go in to any session thinking it will "fix" your dog's DA.

[maryellen]

and trust me EVERY dog gives out signals, its just we miss them and dont see them. and for bruiser to have 3 "unprovoked" attacks means that the dogs were giving signals but everyone missed them. dogs dont attack for no reason, there is ALWAYS a reason.