History - learn it, please!

[suziriot]

Shay, that is such a cute story!

[shay19]

Thank you!

Aida is such a good dog, I love her to death! Right now she's curled up in a ball under my computer desk, her back feet almost touching her nose!

[dooktruck]

do you think my dog is game bred?





just kidding i just wanted to post my dag
RIP mr meiko

[RealPitBull]

Wow Mr Meiko is adorable! Such great pix

[michele5611]

RIP Meiko...what a gorgeous dog!

[dooktruck]

thanks. meiko was really dog aggressive. he came from the shelter and was a really tiny puppy too young to be away from his litter mates and mom...he was housed with the cats. he was originally my moms dog and she never trained him...and when she moved into an apartment, either we took him or he went to the shelter to die because he was so DA. we got him when he was 2. and we had a lot to learn and eventually we could handle him and he was controllable but he never lost his DA or his prey drive.

the thing that is really bad about DA dogs is even if you can control them it is a lot of work. a few years ago we were at my parents with meiko for the holidays. we had locked him up in his crate and shut the door to the room. we were going to the store. my step sister for some reason thought it would be a good idea to take him for a walk without asking or telling anyone. she was in the front yard with meiko and the neighbors let their two labs out into the yard with no leashes on. they both ran up to meiko and they got into it. meiko had clamped down on one of their faces and would not let go and my step sister having no experience with this sort of thing had no idea what to do...she just sort of freaked out. fortunately my brothers girlfriend was familiar with meiko and she went outside when she heard the commotion and bonked him on the head and got him to let go and drug him away by the leash and broke up the fight. luckily the neighbors were understanding even though it was their dogs that were loose. when we get a call on our cell phone that meiko had got into a fight...we were like uhhhhhhhhhh what...how...and rushed back to the house. while i miss him a lot. i don't miss his DA. i wouldn't not adopt a DA dog but it is nice to have one now that is more chilled out.

it depended a lot on the other dog how meiko would react. there was another dog in our neighborhood that was always loose but for some reason he was fine with that dog even if it approached him.

[sugar]

with this breed DA should be expected. Better it be expected and pleasently surprised its not strong than to not expected it and be caught in a bad situation.

And Shay, That was such a cute story! She's a total nanny (or tattletell,lol)

[Dave]

My first two pit bulls (although Buster was a mix) were highly dog aggressive, although not overtly so. I couldn't walk them together for fear of transferred aggression, because we would eventually meet another dogwalker with a nutty dog that might set one of them off. There were occasions when I'd get a problem inside with them, but for the most part they were okay with each other in the house. But they ate separately, slept separately, and weren't allowed to play certain times together. Thankfully none of my immediate neighbors had dogs at the time, so at leat they could go out in the yard at the same time.

It is difficult keeping a DA dog at times.

Meiko = good lookin' dog!

[loverocksalot]

Im now set straight, I get it. Sad but True what these dogs were bred for. Interesting though today I went to a shelter that is in an area near the worst area. They tell me the Animal Control has just about given up. So this place takes in what they can. The lucky dogs who dont make the grade and get dumped on the street. Those are the lucky ones. But what I noticed at these dogs are big rather bulky look over fed or something. Most are quite a bit bigger than Rocky even some females.
There was the sweetest male behind the counter. They told me I could take him for a ride. He likes car rides. I just took him for a walk. Some how this dog knew which car was mine. He stopped dead in his tracks, wanted to get in. They would love for me to foster a dog. I passed along info from my street team packet and told them to go on to the website and print out any info they need.

[loverocksalot]

So After reading Mary's Stubby thread I am now fired up again. My passions can get my fire going. Something I need on this snowy day instead of just cleaning the house. So I am posting this link, was wondering Mary's opinion. I have not read the whole page yet as I want to go get dressed and start the day so I dont find myself in a slump today. So here it is. I am going to do my best to walk away from the computer for a bit and get some things done. I will be back later.
www.pitbulls-fighting-for-their-lives.com/pitbull_fights.html

[RealPitBull]

There really is no way to deny the breed was created to be a fighting dog. You can trace pedigrees back to the 1800's. You can see the difference between baiting bulldogs vs. Pit Bulls in drawings from the 1800s. Size comparison alone should tell you that smaller dogs, ie terriers were crossed into the bulldog to create fighting dogs, AKA the American Pit Bull Terrier.

So I get people are trying to "pretty up" the breed when defending it against BSL. Pretending that Pit Bulls were a "farm" or "herding dog" first and foremost, and then later exploited by the big, mean dog fighters maybe sounds better to some people. Sometimes it's best to just leave people to their little fantasy worlds, I guess.

But when *I* for instance get attacked for stating truth regarding breed history, that's when I get a little sick and tired of newbie, fad-driven Pit Bull advocates (and yes, like it or not, Pit Bull advocacy is now a fad). RPB is driven by fact, historical accuracy, and by a need to provide SOLID information to prospective and current Pit Bull parents so they KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO.

As a little rambling side thought, bull baiting was eventually banned. Dog fighting took its place, was popular for a while, eventually banned, and has today reached the status among sane society as "one of the worst things you could ever do to dogs".

But then misinformed people say things like "Pit Bulls are abused by dog fighters who discovered how loyal they are and how they would do anything for their master, but Pit Bulls were actually originally bred to be farm dogs and bring the bulls in for the butcher!" Um, no. People fight Pit Bulls today, despite the extremely inhumane nature, despite it being illegal, because this is what Pit Bulls were originally bred to do. There is a reason they are the #1 breed in fight busts.

When the breed was created, fighting was a normal thing. It was something people did. It wasn't viewed as that big a deal. Baiting was banned and gave way to the attrocities of factory farming. Dog fighting was banned but continues on to this day even though it is illegal.

I guess my only point is that people will be inhumane, they will find a way around laws, they will continue to exploit and brutalize animals any way they can. When one thing gets banned, another attrocity will take its place. I don't really see what the point of denying history is. I love my breed, I am not ashamed of it. I will not deny what these dogs went through, what made them what they are today.

The history is there, all laid out, in a nice timeline. Seriously. I'm not making this up. This is breed history. It's verifiable. I love studying history of this breed, I love tracing pedigrees back and finding pictures of dogs like this:



^ Colby's Tige, born in 1896 (35 lbs conditioned weight)

Who is so obviously not an "original bulldog":



I guess for some people, it is "nicer" and "easier" for them to pretend like the Pit Bull hasn't been bred for something that is so incredibly upsetting/distasteful/attrocious. It is simpler for them to argue that the breed was "originally a farm dog and that was their TRUE purpose" than to get into the idiosyncrises of the breed's history. Maybe denying history makes it easier for their "It's all how you raise them" argument. Who knows! I'm speculating at this point. And rambling, I guess.

Thanks for reading. Although I hate dog fighting, I absolutely LOVE my breed, I am fascinated about every aspect of it, and enjoy reading about its history, studying pedigrees, looking at old photos, reading first-hand accounts of historical events. If my breed's history was so abhorrant to me that I needed to pretend it didn't happen, and instead make up a new version of it, I would have never gotten involved in Pit Bulls to begin with.

(*Standard disclaimer, because my statements/feelings about history have gotten me in trouble before: of course I am 1000000000% opposed to dog fighting, glad it is illegal, and want this breed to completely move on into the future and preserved as a sound, stable, family, working, and show/competition dog that is far-far-far removed from the pit.)

[emilys]

Feb 1, 2011 10:27:51 GMT -5 loverocksalot said:

...
www.pitbulls-fighting-for-their-lives.com/pitbull_fights.html

Lots of red flags for me.

"Although some APBTs may be suspicious of strangers, as most dogs are..." um, no: an APBT should NOT be suspicious of strangers, and it's not my experience that most dogs are, either. Suspicion of strangers is being accepted in some APBT circles, and that's plain wrong.

"There are several types of dogs that are commonly called “Pit Bulls.” Primarily, these are the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier (AST), and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT)."

Most SBT advocates deny that their breed should be termed a "pit bull"... its pit heritage is WAY WAY far back compared to the APBT (though of course the SBT has its gamedog boycultists the same as the APBT does).

Personally, I disagree that the APBT and the AST have been bred for different purposes, unless you separate out the ADBA pit bull from the UKC one. The ADBA pit bull is still bred by some for fighting; the UKC hasn't been since that org. disavowed dogfighting 40 years ago. And P.s. there WERE AKC/ASTs that were fought...

Think about this: if you leave out the ADBA, virtually NO APBTs or ASTs have been bred for dogfighting in at least 50-70 years. So for what purpose have they been bred? Whatever it is, it's the SAME for the APBT and the AST.

And please do not get me started on the "the pit bull terrier is not a terrier" thing. The fanciers who NAMED the breed they created called it a terrier... I sort of think they know more than the "pit bulls are molosser" crowd.

Where's the evidence that the APBT was a "guardian" dog (and what exactly does that mean anyway??). This is more "wary of strangers is acceptable" propaganda by those who accept a kind of temperament that is not traditional.

I'm not surprised to see the authors laud the ADBA as the "flagship" registry. Yeah, I know there are great ADBA dogs, and great ADBA breeders (guess what: BOTH of my APBTs are ADBA and I was a member for several years). But the registry itself? Paper hanging, mutt (=merle) accepting moneygrubbers (HOW many dogs do they register each year???) who glorify dogfighting, yeah right. They're the ones I want to see representing our breed in public. Not.

It wasn't the AKC that jumped on the bandwagon of the APBT: it was fanciers of the APBT who WANTED AKC recognition. I know the ADBA advocates loathe the AST and the AKC, but tough noogies: the AKC has always been where the prestige was/is in dogshows.. and some founders of the APBT WANTED that prestige associated with the breed. Cause guess what: even back in the day, there were people who wanted to separate the breed from its ignoble association with lowclass and cruel activities.

The dog in the WW1 poster is clearly identified as a "American bull terrier".. it's a white prick eared dog with all the appearance of a classic bull terrier, NOT a classic APBT. At that time, the 2 breeds were very very closely related (which is why "American bull terrier" was one of the names proposed for the AKC version of the APBT) To the extent that APBTs were shown in the (GASP!!!) AKC ring as Bull Terriers.

As for the alleged difference between the AST and the APBT, I defy anyone other than maybe 5 people in the entire world to reliably identify one vs. the other. BOTH "breeds" have a range in conformation from terrier-style to bulldog-style.

The nonsense about "game" and "gamebred" is just that... unless anyone is actually breeding proven fighting dogs. "Game" means NOTHING in the APBT unless it relates to a proven successful pit fighter. "Gamebred" can mean NOTHING unless it relates to dogs bred immediately from 2 game dogs. These are not MY definitions.. they are the definitions of the ADBA dogfighting cultists who schooled me 15+ years ago. If you don't accept those definitions: well, how many generations between your "gamebred" dog and dogs that actually were proven "game" will you allow while still calling your dog "gamebred"? one, two, three, ten? I could call MY dogs "gamebred" because I know maybe 5 generations back, there were fighting dogs, and some maybe were successful. But I don't because that makes no sense, and says nothing about the temperament or physical characteristics of my dogs. Or any dogs.. just look at the photos of historic fighting dogs: they are NOT all the same looking.

The ATTS statistics for the APBT and AST are in the mid 80%, not 90's.

Weightpulling is a great sport for many dogs, but the notion that it somehow reflects the ability of a fighting dog is a joke, precisely because there IS no "blood and sorrow". Without the threat of death/injury, there is not a test of "gameness" (precisely why I scorn upholding "gameness" as something meaningful) . The only sport that MIGHT mirror dogfighting is hoghunting where the dog is used as a catch dog and engages with a dangerous animal, not just a "bay and corner" dog. But that is ineffably cruel to dog and hog.

There is NO legal activity that tests "gameness". There are plenty of activities, of course, that test physical soundness, bravery, drive, trainability and spirit. Not just sports, but detection/SAR work (which really seems to me to be an outstanding use of the "never say die" spirit of the APBT/AST).

Can we PLEASE JUST DROP the whole "pit bulls are fighting dogs" thing? There was NOTHING noble about pitfighting. It was an abuse of a dog's mental and physical capabilities and the more we talk about it, the more we perpetuate the notion that it was the best and ultimate test.

Yeah, dogfighting created our breed, blah blah blah. SO WHAT!? Slavery created jazz music, too.

Let's put the past in the past. Between the gamedog cultists and the "pretty in pink" crowd, there has to be a middle ground that understands and appreciates our tough/soft dogs in all their modern reality.

[RealPitBull]

^Em, you obviously read that link more thoroughly than I did! LOL I literally just skimmed it. Didn't pick out the stuff you did.

ETA: that I agree with all your points above!!!!

Personally I don't really care about the "Pit Bulls are fighting dogs" thing, although I don't particularly LIKE that language and try not to use it when I am talking about the breed in general, certainly not present-tense, as if that is all they are today. They are are companion animal first and foremost, unfortunately still exploited by some people for fighting purposes.

[loverocksalot]

This topic I am very interested in and even though I should be doing other things I could not help but to take a break and come back to see what Mary has to say.
I still have to read the the link I posted.
I totally get ya Mary and I am glad you cleared it up. As I was under the impression of the Bull Baiting farm dog what the original pit bull was. Reading through some of the material I now see it as this. The original bull baiting bull dog and dogs of ancient times that resemble the APBT are what the breeders evolved our beloved breed from. Making for a very human friendly tenacious loyal dog that would do what is asked of him. Hector the vick dog is a prime example of a dog who did what was asked of him to do. The APBT that I own Loves to work. Although not at all Dog Aggressive and just an all around perfect family dog (for my family) will do about anything for me that is work. Even things he is a little nervous about. If I (sorry for lack of better word) raised him to work for me as a fighter and forced him, trained him and rewarded him for his efforts to fight, is it (modified as is it was reversed) very likely that he could be a very different dog. It is also likely that he would still be able to come home and be a family dog. It is sickening to even think about. Sad but true. (modify- just want to express that this was meant to be hypothetical curiosity about what a dogs life might be in a different environment) Does that make sense? Although I could never ever picture Rocky as a fighter since he is such a damb wusy. I have witnessed his desire to please me in his tricks, in the games we play, when he checks the yard and finds an intruder (cat), how he will look at me for acceptance of his barking at the possible intruder.
As much as I am sickened by dog fighting. I too understand the it was the way it was and it was normal and thou today illegal it is still the way it is and normal in some cultures. Being brought up in it as a child where highly respected great grandpa etc were dogfighters. What I am so disturbed about in fighters such as the Michael Vick crew is how they eliminated the dogs who did not have what it takes. That is a whole different sociopolitical issue as far as I am concerned.
Now here goes my DISCLAIMER- I am Opposed to dog fighting. It is a sickening thing that I can not even watch a second of or stand to see photos.
But I am ready to accept it is what my favorite breed of dog was bred for. And I have to accept that if it were not for dog fighting, I would not be blessed with the most amazing dog one could ever be so lucky to have added to their family. I know that no other breed could give me what Rocky has to share. I just pray for the world to realize that this breed can have many purposes and so dream of an end to dog fighting.
Here is a clip from a PBS show that is long but shows Hector and how he went from fighter to coexisting in a home full of pets. www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/video/video-the-dogs-are-alright-the-vick-dogs-make-a-comeback/6676/
Mary I love all you are about! Just so you all know I have respected Mary's opinion for many years. I fell upon a website of hers that I suppose was RPB at the time she had a question for free training and advice on the APBT. She helped me through some minor issues I was having and I am so lucky to have found her as well as some other people who are now members of this forum. It is so ironic that they are in my area within a reasonable distance.
Ok now I must get back to my chores.

[loverocksalot]

"Although some APBTs may be suspicious of strangers, as most dogs are..." um, no: an APBT should NOT be suspicious of strangers, and it's not my experience that most dogs are, either. Suspicion of strangers is being accepted in some APBT circles, and that's plain wrong.

Read more: therealpitbull.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pitbull101&action=display&thread=6839&page=6#ixzz1CjYyshVd

That part I did read. But my Interpretation was different. possibly because my dog is suspicious of "strange" people. When I say strange I am talking of people who I think act weird or who he thinks are acting weird. Maybe he senses my feelings on people but he definitely seems to have a sense of when he might need to be suspicious.
Example. someone knocks on door he is usually waiting wagging no barking except if I dont hear the knock he will let me know with a particular bark for me to know someone is at the door.
Then their are new people I dont know who it is bark when someone knocks. He also recently barks when UPS guy comes. But it is not a protective kind of bark. It is more like a bark that says I am a dog and I live here. I think Rocky just does not get why this guy has been knocking at the door for years but never comes in to say hello. LOL. I swear that's it.

And I am back blabbing again and not doing my chores because I am taking a lunch break.

[loverocksalot]

Yes the ATTS score is 86% but I think I remember it once being a little higher.

And Emily I must tell you I need people like you and Mary to point things out. As being one with a bit of a learning disability I have trouble comprehending info at times. I am also an anxious person who tends not to express myself.
Emily-I must admit at times I have difficulty understanding some of your posts and have to re read them, I also have trouble reading if you are angry about something. We would make good friends as I have a feeling we are opposites and would balance each other well.
Seriously I like your point about the DF (dog fighting created our breed so what part) I agree. The history of the breed and history in general, researching I enjoy learning.

[Karen]

Feb 1, 2011 13:12:47 GMT -5 loverocksalot said:

Making for a very human friendly tenacious loyal dog that would do what is asked of him. Hector the vick dog is a prime example of a dog who did what was asked of him to do.

Not to be mean or anything but you don't make a dog fight. They either do or don't. Being Terriers some have a higher threshold of tolerance than others. and yes I AM speaking from experience in running multiples together for as long as it lasted. Now we are down to supervised pairs only. YES they will fight with no training. You betcha!

Feb 1, 2011 13:12:47 GMT -5 loverocksalot said:

The APBT that I own Loves to work. Although not at all Dog Aggressive and just an all around perfect family dog (for my family) will do about anything for me that is work. Even things he is a little nervous about. If I (sorry for lack of better word) raised him to work for me as a fighter and forced him, trained him and rewarded him for his efforts to fight, it is very likely that he could be a very different dog. It is also likely that he would still be able to come home and be a family dog. It is sickening to even think about. Sad but true. Although I could never ever picture Rocky as a fighter since he is such a damb wusy. I have witnessed his desire to please me in his tricks, in the games we play, when he checks the yard and finds an intruder (cat), how he will look at me for acceptance of his barking at the possible intruder.

How old is this dog? Dog aggression can kick in at any age at any point. If you miss that one hard stare or stiff shoulder then you are in for it. I had a dog like yours. I miss her every day, she tore my heart out when she died. she was cold as the winter was long. up until she was 4. She got along with our other girl wonderfully. They did everything together. we had a rescue dog who was highly dog aggressive and Tuxi and Bug had a mutual hate on for each other.

My husband was mowing the lawn and the girls were loose in the house while he was outside. Bug and Tux got into a crate moth off and Cuddles slammed Bug. She dragged Bug up one end of the house and down the other. When I got home my husband told me what happened and I didn't believe it. CUDDLES? Then I looked at her and she ran away submissively peeing all over the place.

Bug had tears in her neck and punctures. Cudds had punctures and that was it. They had another fight, their last one a year later again caused by Tuxi.

It truly isn't in how you raise them and I just hate to think you are setting your dog up for an epic fail with unreal expectations. NONE of my dogs have been "raised to fight" except the rescue Clem (was fought 1-2 years of age we got him at almost 11) yet Dilly and Bug will light into each other at the drop of a hat. With management and knowing what to look for the dogs go out and go to petco and places, Dill is in training for my husband's service dog right now (epic fail in obedience but she is a blood sugar detector so the nose definitely works!). My 11 year old has been handling and showing them all since she was 18 months old in the pee wee class.

Also rowdy and Dilly were raised with cats. They would still nail one out in the yard if given half a chance. I don't think he is looking at you for direction but just to see if he is getting caught.

I have alway hated dog fighting and do not in any way support it but the dogs are always the ones to pay in the end no matter what. i'm not picking on you at all I have just read this same type of post over and over and then when the reality of a huge mess happens it scares the person and they look at their dog so differently. If you look at him a little differently now as a protection for him against danger to him, you will be able to not have any bad experiences.

As for the wary of strangers, watch that. I have a couple who are like that and for reasons taught to them by experience. Probably scent related, pot and other chemical cocktails alter the human scent. I am always watching for them around people I even think have imbibed. They are dogs and dogs can't make rational to us decisions. They make choices that are good for a dog and defend the pack (you) or den (house). Needless to say they are put up if we have company. Are they normal dogs? Yeah. They aren't 100% rock solid pit bulls either but my responsibility. Both are altered.

I hope you don't take my post the wrong way.

[loverocksalot]

First I dont think you are being mean I think you dont know me yet and I think You mis understood what i was trying to say. Which Is my issue because I do not express myself well. I am dislexic and anxious person who often screws up in writing and getting my point across. I used the word "raised" for lack of better words. I do not believe in the its all how you raise them.
What I was trying to say is that I am admitting what my dogs original heritage was bred for. And that some of the dogs Like Hector seem as they dont really want to fight. I dont believe some of these dogs want to fight some of them do it because they are forced into it so to say. I am fully aware of the dog aggression possibilities. It was just a hypothetical thing. a Wondering thing that if a non dog aggressive dog can be coaxed to fight?
Rocky is 5 and I assure you I am in no way setting him up for failure. He is my only dog and possibly will always be as I will not bring another dog in until I am all prepared for crate and rotate. His interactions have mostly been with my dads Austrailian shepherds.
I dont think I am taking your post the wrong way. I am not offended at all in fact I am already 100% in agreement with all.
He is not wary of strangers just wary of the strange. Like one of my own kids dressed in all black hood up and jumping the fence has caused him to go into a what the hell is that. Until he realizes when they get closer he seems to feel like an idiot. I think he thought he was the stinkin bear! LOL
BTW Rocky is a therapy dog
Sh*t I was worried I screwed up that post and people might mis understand what I meant. This was just something I thought about after seeing that PBS segment about Hector and how his life is completely different. It made me think about if a dog like mine were (not raised bad word) born into the fighting world. Could he become like that (fighting dog) since he enjoys working and pleasing or would he be a dead dog cause he is a wus. again lack of better word to describe him. It horrifys me to think that dogs like him are being used for this which is why I think about it. I am currently reading The Lost Dogs slowly as I am not a good reader and have a hard time swallowing this horrific stuf. On top of that I am a slow reader. But I am also interested in the history and the reality. I feel if I close it out and shut my eyes I cant help the cause.

[loverocksalot]

Now you got me thinking about what the hell am I trying to say?
I think I am curious about the same type of dog in a Thug life situation. In other words if Rocky stayed where he was before he was turned into the shelter.
I'm not making any sense am I?

[RealPitBull]

Carolann, you're fine! I feel like this is an interesting thread because we are all kind of going in a stream of consciousness/figuring things out as we go along mode.

I have lots more to add, but I may not get back here til late tonight or tomorrow. In the mean time, carry on!