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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 3, 2011 10:11:23 GMT -5
Now you got me thinking about what the hell am I trying to say? I think I am curious about the same type of dog in a Thug life situation. In other words if Rocky stayed where he was before he was turned into the shelter. I'm not making any sense am I? Actually, yes, you totally are......I think you bring up some interesting points. It is the old nature v nurture debate.  |
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Post by Dave on Feb 3, 2011 10:40:20 GMT -5
If you KNOW your breed, understand that a dog isn't "dog-aggressive/not dog-aggressive", but rather this is behavior that can pop up when you least expect it because it is NORMAL dog behavior IN GENERAL, and also take necessary precautions to keep your dogs safe, you will be far ahead in the long run in terms of ensuring peaceful interactions between your dogs and other dogs. And you also need to know and keep in mind that dogs bred for specific functions tend to lean towards exhibiting behavioral traits that allowed them to excel at those specific functions....... I'm so glad you mentioned this. Many people are appalled when our dogs show such heightened aggression towards other dogs, and emphatically state that their dogs are never aggressive. All dogs use aggression as part of their communication with other dogs; with us, too. It's just that it hasn't been honed to the degree it has with APBTs. A side effect I am seeing, too, of the revised history of the breed, is that nice dogs in rescue settings are being murdered for exhibiting some normal dog-sensitivity issues. Yes, I use the word murdered because I find it abhorrant that typical, stable, sound APBTs are being euthanized because they are now apparently not acceptable, and it is just so much easier to place the supposed "cold" dogs. (Sending Pit Bulls out into the world under the guise that they are "cold" i.e. will not show dog-aggression and are fine with other dogs is a disaster waiting to happen. That's another subject.....I do NOT advocate placing dogs with serious dog-directed aggression issues, nor would I advocate placing a dog that has seriously injured another dog. But dogs that are actually showing NORMAL dog-sensitivity, even dogs that should really only go to only-dog homes, is pretty much par for the course when you are rescuing this breed!!!!!!!!) I still remember a "big name" rescue posting a blog about this super-great Pit Bull that had a stellar temperament with people, but due to an accidental kennel fight, the dog had to be euth'd. I still get sick to my stomach a lil bit when I recall reading it. It was disgusting. This has happened at my shelter, and even with a pit bull rescue I volunteered with. I constantly tell staff not to deemphasize animal aggression in our pit bull mixes. When I first started volunteering nearly two decades ago they were actually doubling them up in kennel runs. Adoptors need to know what can happen, and has happened to others so they don't have learn by their own error. I often use my Rocky as an example. He is not overtly dog aggressive. He has no issue, other than with the neighbor's dog (fence aggression) with dogs near him. But if they approach face-to-face, he will attack with no apparent warning. Yet he lives harmoniously with my Lola, and previously with another male. Those that I spoke to about it, seem to get it. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 3, 2011 10:43:20 GMT -5
The very first book I ever read about APBTs was Stratton's The Truth About the APBT. I would strongly suggest reading all of Stratton's books - just keeping in mind that he is totally cool with dog fighting and definitely sugarcoats it. In terms of breed history, TRUE APBT temperament, etc, his books are pretty much irreplaceable.
An interesting book on the Bulldog is called The Story of the Real Bulldog by Robert Jenkins, Ken Mollett.
As far as Diane Jessup goes, I think she is really spot-on in terms of this breed and I'd say I agree with her close to 90% of the time. BUT her version of APBT history is what I blame this "Pit Bulls are farm dogs" thing on. She seems to be blinded by a notion of what she wants the dogs to be, rather than just accepting them for what they are in terms of their lineage and historical purpose/reason for being created as a breed.
I went through a phase were I REALLY wanted to know/believe that the APBT was the original bulldog (this was thanks to Diane); I read and read and read and read, and had to finally just accept that APBTs were created from bulldogs and terriers and solidified as a breed via the pit and the gamedog breeders (again, I say, just pick up some pedigrees!!!!!!!! Research some old time breeders!!!!! I love my exclamation points!!!!!!! LOL Seriously, though, if people just traced some pedigrees and did some research on breeders/old bloodlines, a lot of this sort of "what are they/what were they originally bred to do!?" discussion would not be necessary).
I still do not believe these are 50/50 bulldog/terrier crosses. I still call them "bulldogs" or pit bulldogs casually. I still do not consider them "terriers" per se, and I find them far more bulldog-ish than terrier-ish, any day of the week. But they absolutely have terrier blood intermingled with the bulldog blood. They are NOT the original bulldog, they were NOT "originally a farm/working/baiting dog".
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Post by loverocksalot on Feb 3, 2011 11:00:37 GMT -5
This thread is becoming more than just history, but the history is the basis and I love it.
Mary thank you for the things you said and yes SATURDAY!!! The weather better not f it up.
Great points made on the dog aggression thing. I like how the" you" was noted. I had to learn how to not use "you" when scolding the kids and having a discussion. But I knew you were talking in general. But sometimes we all mis understand so it was good to point it out.
I would actually at some point like to discuss some situations and experiences that we have had and how they changed him with maturity. just not sure what type of thread to start about it at this time I am just stuck on this history thing.
I also want to Thank Karen for pointing things out for all to learn.
I am quite fascinated right now with the part in the Lost Dogs about a very scarred dog who given his situation most likely the scars were from fighting. However his evaluation he showed to be comfortable in presence of other dogs. Why and how does this happen.
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Post by loverocksalot on Feb 3, 2011 11:31:30 GMT -5
Ok I have to go out but, First sorry I am stuck on the Lost Dogs book but I cant help it since I am currently reading it. But here goes. The last paragraph from the History Chapter.
Even Louis Colby, A renowned breeder and reformed dogfighter has said that if you mated two champion dogs and harvested a litter of twelve pups, there might be one champion in the group. Certainly if you raised pit bulls in an atmosphere of hostility, frustrated and angered them, honed their aggressiveness, and then put them into a situation where they felt challenged, some of them would fight, but so would most other dogs.
I read this last night and it answered my posted hypothetical.
The paragraph goes on about that.
They may prefer not to fight but like people they are individuals. is pretty much the rest of the paragraph.
Very interesting.
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mhaze
I Love RPBF!
Posts: 455
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Post by mhaze on Feb 3, 2011 14:34:41 GMT -5
Great thread...just read the whole thing. I too went along with the farm dog thing, mostly after reading Dianne Jessup's "The Working Pit Bull." I wanted to believe it, but deep down it seemed like a stretch. I don't mean to single Jessup out. My point is that you can't take one source's version of history as fact. My library groweth... |
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Post by Karen on Feb 4, 2011 14:11:54 GMT -5
I still do not consider them "terriers" per se, and I find them far more bulldog-ish than terrier-ish, any day of the week. But they absolutely have terrier blood intermingled with the bulldog blood. They are NOT the original bulldog, they were NOT "originally a farm/working/baiting dog". Now see? I do consider them almost all Terrier! I come from a Terrier background, Cairns, Min Pins, some Jacks, Airedales and a few mixed in there. These guys show way more Terrier attitude than the bulldog side of things. Just from the few EBs, Oldde English, and ABs I have been around. but maybe that is just my dogs and the lines we apparently gravitated to? |
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Post by loverocksalot on Feb 4, 2011 15:17:03 GMT -5
Yeah but I have read history that believes the Old English Bull dog was not bred from the bull dog that was used for bull baiting but the Pit Bull was. That history is being debated.
but one book I just got from my library for .25c used book sale.
Says this......
"Most historians believe that the stocky bull-baiting dog were crossed with the swift and agile terriers of the time to produce the aptly named bull and terrier, a relatively small, smart agile, tough, and strong game dog the likes of which had never been seen before. Other breed historians contend that no such cross was made and point out that the bulldog of the time, the bullenbeisser, was in fact so similar to the modern Pit bull that it was simply a matter of selecting the most successful fighters. Whatever the recipe was it worked."
Later it says....
"The Breed known today as the Bulldog or English Bulldog is not the same as the bulldog of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. The earlier Bulldog strain in=s the ancestor of both the modern pit bull breeds and the modern bulldog. But was more similar to today's Pit bull than today's bulldog"
So I guess there is no proof yet? But I figured there must be some terrier in there for it to be in the name?
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Post by emilys on Feb 4, 2011 15:30:29 GMT -5
.... I am quite fascinated right now with the part in the Lost Dogs about a very scarred dog who given his situation most likely the scars were from fighting. However his evaluation he showed to be comfortable in presence of other dogs. Why and how does this happen. this is one of the most fascinating aspect of the newest viewpoint on the rescue of fighting dogs that the Vick situation has shown. The public attention to these dogs has revealed a lot that pit bull rescuers have always known, but not had the forum ( or perhaps the interest) to discuss. SEVERAL of those rescued dogs are compatible/friendly with other dogs and this has always been the case. I think there are several explanations, including: 1) many of the Vick dogs were NOT fighting dogs, but pets and breeding dogs. There's no way in hell that "Jonny Justice" was a fighting dog. 2) the scaring on Hector and Lucas (who appear to be related, as does Leo) suggests a fighting background but I've never read whether any actual fighting records were seized. We don't know if the scarred dogs were "good" fighters or "curs". We all know about Hector's current awesome life; Lucas has been assessed as too dog-aggressive to be adopted out. 3) we know from reading history that some fighting dogs could/did live as pets, including living with other pets and were not interested in fighting outside the pit. 4) what do we know now about what motivates a pitfighting dog to fight? SOME dogs just love to scrap and will do so at the drop of a hat, with little instigation (and inside a pit or not). SOME dogs will fight if put in a position where it MUST fight (like, say, an enclosed pit confronted with a hostile dog?????). SOME dogs will not fight, or will not "scratch". So to me this is just another angle on the "every dog is an individual and deserves to be treated as an individual". Along with the "not every pit bull seized in a large bust is a dog that has fought". |
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Post by loverocksalot on Feb 4, 2011 15:34:48 GMT -5
.... I am quite fascinated right now with the part in the Lost Dogs about a very scarred dog who given his situation most likely the scars were from fighting. However his evaluation he showed to be comfortable in presence of other dogs. Why and how does this happen. this is one of the most fascinating aspect of the newest viewpoint on the rescue of fighting dogs that the Vick situation has shown. The public attention to these dogs has revealed a lot that pit bull rescuers have always known, but not had the forum ( or perhaps the interest) to discuss. SEVERAL of those rescued dogs are compatible/friendly with other dogs and this has always been the case. I think there are several explanations, including: 1) many of the Vick dogs were NOT fighting dogs, but pets and breeding dogs. There's no way in hell that "Jonny Justice" was a fighting dog. 2) the scaring on Hector and Lucas (who appear to be related, as does Leo) suggests a fighting background but I've never read whether any actual fighting records were seized. We don't know if the scarred dogs were "good" fighters or "curs". We all know about Hector's current awesome life; Lucas has been assessed as too dog-aggressive to be adopted out. 3) we know from reading history that some fighting dogs could/did live as pets, including living with other pets and were not interested in fighting outside the pit. 4) what do we know now about what motivates a pitfighting dog to fight? SOME dogs just love to scrap and will do so at the drop of a hat, with little instigation (and inside a pit or not). SOME dogs will fight if put in a position where it MUST fight (like, say, an enclosed pit confronted with a hostile dog?????). SOME dogs will not fight, or will not "scratch". So to me this is just another angle on the "every dog is an individual and deserves to be treated as an individual". Along with the "not every pit bull seized in a large bust is a dog that has fought". Good Stuff! |
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Post by Karen on Feb 4, 2011 15:39:31 GMT -5
Yeah but I have read history that believes the Old English Bull dog was not bred from the bull dog that was used for bull baiting but the Pit Bull was. Olde english Buldogges are a new recreation of the pld based om ABs English Bulldogs and probably pit bull too www.ioeba.net/ |
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Post by suziriot on Feb 4, 2011 16:05:40 GMT -5
.... I am quite fascinated right now with the part in the Lost Dogs about a very scarred dog who given his situation most likely the scars were from fighting. However his evaluation he showed to be comfortable in presence of other dogs. Why and how does this happen. this is one of the most fascinating aspect of the newest viewpoint on the rescue of fighting dogs that the Vick situation has shown. The public attention to these dogs has revealed a lot that pit bull rescuers have always known, but not had the forum ( or perhaps the interest) to discuss. SEVERAL of those rescued dogs are compatible/friendly with other dogs and this has always been the case. I think there are several explanations, including: 1) many of the Vick dogs were NOT fighting dogs, but pets and breeding dogs. There's no way in hell that "Jonny Justice" was a fighting dog. 2) the scaring on Hector and Lucas (who appear to be related, as does Leo) suggests a fighting background but I've never read whether any actual fighting records were seized. We don't know if the scarred dogs were "good" fighters or "curs". We all know about Hector's current awesome life; Lucas has been assessed as too dog-aggressive to be adopted out. 3) we know from reading history that some fighting dogs could/did live as pets, including living with other pets and were not interested in fighting outside the pit. 4) what do we know now about what motivates a pitfighting dog to fight? SOME dogs just love to scrap and will do so at the drop of a hat, with little instigation (and inside a pit or not). SOME dogs will fight if put in a position where it MUST fight (like, say, an enclosed pit confronted with a hostile dog?????). SOME dogs will not fight, or will not "scratch". So to me this is just another angle on the "every dog is an individual and deserves to be treated as an individual". Along with the "not every pit bull seized in a large bust is a dog that has fought". Yes, yes, and YES! |
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Post by apbt on Feb 9, 2011 0:30:52 GMT -5
I debated with myself to post this, because I have been flamed in the past for what I know and have learned. But... That picture of the actual pit bull is not a poorly bred or BYB dog. It is a Tom Garner dog, with a respected pedigree in those circles, and is considered one of his best prospective studs. Garner doesn't breed for conformation, he breeds what works for him, and what worked for others in the dogs' past. Form follows function, and is the main reason APBTs look the way they do. I'm not glorifying, I'm just sayin'. good post. nice call. |
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Post by apbt on Feb 9, 2011 1:39:37 GMT -5
as far as their history goes, it's all going to depend on what you read and whom you choose to believe. there have been pictures and carvings done from the 1800's, (one of which is entitled "Wasp, Child and Billy", from 1809) that clearly depicts the "true working bulldog" of that time. he was approx 50lbs, stood on long, straight legs had the rose ears and the same tail type of the dogs we see today. at that time, that type of bull dog had survived centuries as a butcher's dog, a guardian and a baiting animal. CENTURIES. but no doubt, those 50 lb (and larger) bull dogs were also bred/crossed with the terrier to make them more agile, quicker and yes, smaller. when j.p.Colby, born in the 1800's (1875, to be exact) started with his line, of which a majority of todays dog's were/are, in part derived from~as , if you trace back, waay back, certain lineages, you'll find many got their start, in one way or another, from some some amount of Colby blood. the best and most renounded fighting dogs j.p obtained came from the U.K., Whales and ireland, and many were quite small in size, some weighing only 27 lbs or so. so, yeah, this breed, has a long, sometimes vague history, tho, today's dogs for the most part have stayed, as opposed to strayed, ( since being in our country), pretty much true to their roots. as mentioned, history traced and written about earlier is pretty much subject to personal interpretation, since so little had been written down or even documented. as far as the Vick dogs, or any APBT, for that matter, in terms of the [ ], in short, some have that propensity/willingness and some do not. some, no matter how much schooling they receive just don't cut it, be that in skill, attitude or both. yeah, hence are deemed cold or curs. gameness is a trait the APBT is born with, not acquired. it's what sets them apart from every other breed. they either are game or not, which is why many make great pets, because, i'll go out on a limb and say many are NOT as opposed to are. doggers will test their dogs limitations, but that statement came straight out of the mouth of one of the most infamous of APBT breeders, so, i'll quote him on that.  but for sure, it's a smart thing, a REAL smart thing to learn your dog's history. to deny it is only ignorant, and sets you, as an owner, up for potential failure. nature and nuture go hand-in-hand and genetics will always find a way to kick in, so, in knowing this breed's history, no doubt it's best to be prepared. |
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Post by loverocksalot on Feb 9, 2011 7:44:00 GMT -5
as far as their history goes, it's all going to depend on what you read and whom you choose to believe. there have been pictures and carvings done from the 1800's, (one of which is entitled "Wasp, Child and Billy", from 1809) that clearly depicts the "true working bulldog" of that time. he was approx 50lbs, stood on long, straight legs had the rose ears and the same tail type of the dogs we see today. at that time, that type of bull dog had survived centuries as a butcher's dog, a guardian and a baiting animal. CENTURIES. but no doubt, those 50 lb (and larger) bull dogs were also bred/crossed with the terrier to make them more agile, quicker and yes, smaller. when j.p.Colby, born in the 1800's (1875, to be exact) started with his line, of which a majority of todays dog's were/are, in part derived from~as , if you trace back, waay back, certain lineages, you'll find many got their start, in one way or another, from some some amount of Colby blood. the best and most renounded fighting dogs j.p obtained came from the U.K., Whales and ireland, and many were quite small in size, some weighing only 27 lbs or so. so, yeah, this breed, has a long, sometimes vague history, tho, today's dogs for the most part have stayed, as opposed to strayed, ( since being in our country), pretty much true to their roots. as mentioned, history traced and written about earlier is pretty much subject to personal interpretation, since so little had been written down or even documented. as far as the Vick dogs, or any APBT, for that matter, in terms of the [ ], in short, some have that propensity/willingness and some do not. some, no matter how much schooling they receive just don't cut it, be that in skill, attitude or both. yeah, hence are deemed cold or curs. gameness is a trait the APBT is born with, not acquired. it's what sets them apart from every other breed. they either are game or not, which is why many make great pets, because, i'll go out on a limb and say many are NOT as opposed to are. doggers will test their dogs limitations, but that statement came straight out of the mouth of one of the most infamous of APBT breeders, so, i'll quote him on that. but for sure, it's a smart thing, a REAL smart thing to learn your dog's history. to deny it is only ignorant, and sets you, as an owner, up for potential failure. nature and nuture go hand-in-hand and genetics will always find a way to kick in, so, in knowing this breed's history, no doubt it's best to be prepared. Exactly what I have been doing was looking at some of the artwork. Is there a recommended book containing some of this artwork. Maybe a book of just dog history and artwork. actually just found one dont know if it is what I am looking for. www.amazon.com/Dog-Painting-History-Art/dp/1851495762 |
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Post by sugar on Feb 10, 2011 17:03:38 GMT -5
Had the bf's brother and gf over for Superbowl. Not the biggest fan of the brother because he has a very sweet brindle pit female that he bought from a "breeder" (whatever) but also because he encourages her bad behavior (like she redirects her aggression on to her toys anytime someone fights near here and has almost snapped at his mom because when she was yelling at him for something and he called out "Sasha, help me!!" idiot). Sorry, I could go on but that will require more time,lol. Anywho, the gf also has a pitbull (also from a 'breeder', ugh). She was asking me questions about how I deal with certain behaviors with Chubs and whatnot and was  when I suggested she shouldn't take her dog to the dog park. "Oh, but he's been going since I got him as a puppy but today he attacked two other dogs. Maybe I should take him back when he has calmed down". Obviously I immediately told her she shouldn't take him back ever and how some pitbulls (well, dogs in general, but pitbulls especially) can develop DA as they mature (and her dog is right about the right age for it). She got really defensive telling me she socialized him a lot and how he loooooooves the dog park. Well I assured it that you can socialized them (which is great!!) but sometimes he happens anyway because of what they were originally bred to do. Fight other dogs. Her wides got real wide. She couldn't believe it. "But I heard they were bred to help on farms and help with kids and stuff. Its not like they are rotties or anything". Breathe Kaleena, breathe. lol I calmed explained that they are great dogs, very people friendly but a good portion of them just grow into their DA and how it would be better for her dog not to go to dog parks because if things turned sour then herd og will be blamed, and could be potentially confiscated and even put down. Not to mention all the legal bills and fines she could have to pay. She sorta giggled and told me that her dog is very sweet and she doubts it woud ever go that far. She then went back to watch the game. *sigh* ps: please note when I say breeder, I mean those horrible BYB that convince young stupid people to buy dogs from them because the 4 week old puppies have been temperment tested and are very dog and people friendly and how this color is very rare and its not really a pitbull is a rare hybrid of Stafforshire Terrier and Bulldog...yeah.  |
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Post by catstina on Feb 10, 2011 18:06:55 GMT -5
GAAH, indeed! Poor Kaleena! I don't know how I would have handled that one!
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Post by RealPitBull on May 20, 2011 8:45:16 GMT -5
Just to add to this thread for historical reference ( just a snippet - won't post the whole article because I think it's too graphic for this forum - also, said snippet edited by me due to attrocious punctuation): When Cockney Charlie Lloyd of New York pitted Pilot, his white brindle, against Crib owned by Louis Kreiger of Louisville, this was dog fighting de luxe.
This was a fair "scratch in turn" match for a side bet of $1000 & the American championship.
The sport had come a long way since the 1860's & 1870's when the notorious & evil Kit Burns had his infamous dog fighting pit at 273 Water Street, New York where prostitution was merely a side line in this notorious "den of iniquity".
The challenge for the championship match had been closed in the offices of the "Police Gazette", which then gave space to both blue ribbon & fighting dogs. It's publisher Richard K Fox had accepted the post of stakeholder.
The articles of agreement signed in the "Police Gazette" offices on September 1st 1881 stipulated, "Charles Lloyd hereby agrees to fight his brindle & white dog Pilot (ears cut & tail on) against Louis Kreiger's white dog Crib (ears cut & tail on) at 28lb weight for $1000 a side. The said fight to take place the 19th day of October 1881.Cockney Charlie and Pilot:  More here: www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Police/Sins/Crib.htmlAgain, posted for historical reference and accuracy. In the gambling spirit that's suddenly taken over this forum (see Emily's thread on 'nanny dogs' ;D ), I would like to propose a bet of eleventy billion dollars that NO one can find actual historical references to APBTs herding cattle or having been originally created to herd cattle/be farm dogs. |
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Post by emilys on May 20, 2011 9:57:14 GMT -5
yikes, that link!
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Post by RealPitBull on May 24, 2011 7:52:57 GMT -5
Yeah, ya know all you have to do to realize how badly authors like Stratton downplay dog fighting (the dogs enjoy it, dogmen don't want their dogs to die, blah blah) is read old match reports.  |
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