Breeding Out Aggression?

[bully81]

Hey Everyone,

I was curious what you all thought of my question, is it possible to breed out dog aggression out of APBT's? If so, that would probably take a LONG time right?

I know you can breed for certain traits, which is why I was curious to ask about the dog on dog aggression.

Thanks!

[sugar]

I guess it could be possible, but it may take a loooooong time. Think of it like trying to breed out herding instincts in Border Collies or Blue Heelers, or guarding instincts out of Rotties and Dobies or scenting out of a Bloodhound or beagle. When a dog has been bred for years and years for a specific task (fighting/scenting/protecting/herding/etc) it could end up taking just as long to breed those specific traits out of them.

I don't know quite as much on the topic as others on the board, but thats just my thoughts.

[emilys]

well your first step is to define "aggression", i.e. "fear" vs "prey drive"

and then your second step is define what behaviors can be modified through training and/or management.

In the case of the APBT, you'd have decide if you're willing to risk losing "proverbial courage" in order to get "unaggressive"

[bully81]

Thank you Sugar and Emilys for your feedback. I agree it would take a VERY long time to breed out dog on dog aggression.

Emilys, you are right, in order to remove one trait you probably would have to lose another.

I was just curious about it, since I see the APBT as the perfect dog. I just wish they were not dog aggressive.

[emilys]

well, I think you can look at Dobermans to see what happens when you work on breeding out "aggression"... you get a cringing fearful animal (which is what almost all the Dobes I meet are like).

IMO, there are NO legitimate breeders of UKC APBTs or AKC ASTs who breed "for" aggression. If they select dogs with bold fearless temperaments who love people (which is what they should do), then it makes sense to me that some "aggression" would come along with that. At least "aggression" that is not fear based.. but rather that classic "I won't start a fight but I'll finish it" attitude that we should expect. An APBT that is nervy, anxious and seems to want to pick a fight with any dog it sees is no more correct than the shutdown shy one, and is certainly not "game".

[Karen]

One AST breeder who culls dog aggressive dogs comes to mind...... Her dogs are VERY soft and that brings a whole other set of issues with it, ones you don't want as much as the over the top dog aggro ones. Frankly, every over the top dog I have ever seen is actually fearful and in a strike first at anything mode. These are Terriers and other Terrier breeds are just as dog aggro as ours. Bedlingtons and Kerries can be down right nasty! I hear of Jacks being left alone together for years then blood and eyeballs all over.

Part of what makes this breed what it is is that Terrier attitude and personality. If that goes hand in hand with the dog aggression, I'll willingly live with it to get the rest.

[loverocksalot]

Dobes can be neurotic alright.
I suppose within the APBT the dog aggression has gotten watered down a bit though?
I am not sure I ever met a legitimate breeders dog in person.

[bully81]

Thank you Karen, Emilys (again), and loverocksalot.

I understand what you all are saying. Having a dog that posesses too much of one trait is not good. I guess it's all about a balance. I would not want to alter the APBT in any way. I just wish people did not automatically think that since you have an APBT that it will kill any other dog it may meet or not like. I am trying to educate some people and they won't let THAT issue die.

[loverocksalot]

Actually I dont mind people thinking that too much. Reason being I hate when people let their dogs walk up to Rocky. I actually prefer they think he might eat them and keep walking. Its the ones who think that he would eat their kids that bother me.
The ones who try, instead of saying he is not friendly...which I dont like to say because it could imply not friendly with humans, I say to them..."he gets nervous around strange dogs" and keep walking. I usually dont make eye contact with others walking past. As this usually deters them from trying to walk up to us. And being a person who is not assertive and quite the door mat that is easier for me to avoid them.
For me it is better socialization for Rocky to be able to ignore other dogs and walk on. He only has a few dog friends he plays with and those would be my dads. Other than that it is walks with Maryellen and friends and the dogs dont really interact much except for the occasional sneak in of a sniff. Where someone might get told off from another. And they are not all Pit Bulls. Maryellen has a photo of us posted on here some place.

[adoptapitbull]

The key to DA issues is being proactive. Don't let your dog get in any situation that could go south. On walks, pick up on body language and behavior. If both dogs are happy or relaxed, a sniff sniff would probably be OK. On the other hand, anything negative should not be taken lightly. It's not a good idea to be put in a situation where your dog is not comfortable.

In the home, be aware of what could start a fight, and modify your doggy lifestyle because of it. Sure, it's easier to just let the dogs have a Kong or bone lying out all the time, but not if those items start fights. When you are not there, they are separated. If you know the mailman comes daily at 10am and the dogs go nuts (barking, jumping, etc), put them in separate rooms till he leaves. Lots of Pit fights start over silly things like barking at a squirrel through a window or playing too rough. It's not as cut and dry as "I see a dog. I fight with a dog".

It is possible for Pits to live in multiple dog homes. Some situations are easier than others, say one Pit and one opposite sex dog. Others with multiple Pits or especially DA Pits may be more difficult. With proper management and a bit of patience, DA is truly not the end of the world. The work is worth the reward, tons and tons of love and slobbery kisses

[bully81]

Thank you ladies again and again! You all make valid points

[Karen]

Speaking of idiots with dogs....... I will never forget a show where one of the judges had a dog related to Dill and was friends with her breeder. She had her dog loose and wandering. Apparently he plays with Dill's sister the non-bitchy Star in hotel rooms and stuff. Being a judge you'd think she would understand Dilly wasn't Star and just because I had Dill and Rowdy together on lead and they were messing around together it did NOT mean that Dill would not remove her dog's face and hand it back to him. And Dill is FAST. She just kept saying but he plays with Star.......

Ruth has stayed with us for a week and seen all the dogs and she even says Dill is a LOT hotter than Star is and very quick to take offense. Does she look it? No. She looks like the littlest cutest thing on 4 legs. All sugar and sweetness..... She will cheerfully take on a male as well as a female so there are dogs that you have to watch every second around both sexes. If she is playing with Rowdy it is perfectly fine for her to make him bleed but if he pinches and makes her yip it is SO not play any more as fast as a blink. Rowd is always on lead when they play so I can reel him in and chase her off if she yelps.

In Silly I think how hard she works, her drive, and her being a hard dog are all wrapped up together so separating the dog aggression out of the equation would make me lose what? The dog she is being bred to is a son of Tatonka's XXX. Diane has gotten dogs from Joanie for her law dogs thing. Ozzie is same sex aggressive which means these pups are going to be (or should be) pretty hard headed little wombats. Hopefully they will have their parents brains and with training behave as well as their mother does in public with rude dogs.

[loverocksalot]

Yeah I feared Rocky would fail the therapy test when one of the people who was part of the help crew allowed her dog to jump over the barrier from the floor and onto the test area during a break while we were waiting and watching. Rocky about had a sh*t fit as dog off lead is a major red flag for him. Everyone looked at us and we had to go outside. This woman was allowing her dog to follow her around off lead. and go on to the floor off lead from time to time. Me being me I did not say anything but it was driving me nuts. It is not acceptable in the Therapy Dogs International rules as far as I read. Anyway later during the test guess who the subject of the friendly dog was. I told evaluator she can not let that dog come on this floor off lead it wont be a fair evaluation. She obliged but looked offended. And he passed. Did quite well.
To me it is very unfair when people do this. They think they are so cool that their Aussie follows them around and does not take their eyes off of them. I got to learn to grow some. That's why I walk in the areas with lots of dogs with Maryellen she has got it. No stopping her from speaking up.
Woops sorry for hijacking the thread.

[melonie]

Having two pit bulls and a crabby black lab for the last week or so has taught me a lot. The pit bulls are actually better behaved then the lab. They can wrestle steal each others toys etc. But add my lab in and all hello breaks loose over a stolen toy, a knock on the door, the cat zooming through the house... He escalates a situation quickly, and isn't smart enough to back off with out physical intervention.

Management, and patience and and a sense of humor is what it takes!
Cleveland has had to spend the majority of the day in his kennel because it has been a busy day. I feel badly about it, and it is tempting to let him stay out while everyone is gone for the next 3 hours. But I know that if I do I will come home to either no living cats, trash all over the house, shredded pillows, or a dead or injured dog. He can just pout it out in his kennel and enjoy tomorrow when someone will be home all day!

If you bred out the da in pitbulls, I think you lose too much of the breed. I expect to have issues with all the pit bulls in my circle, so it doesn't bother me too much that I have to manage the dogs.

[suziriot]

Feb 2, 2011 12:54:50 GMT -5 Karen said:

One AST breeder who culls dog aggressive dogs comes to mind...... Her dogs are VERY soft and that brings a whole other set of issues with it, ones you don't want as much as the over the top dog aggro ones. Frankly, every over the top dog I have ever seen is actually fearful and in a strike first at anything mode. These are Terriers and other Terrier breeds are just as dog aggro as ours. Bedlingtons and Kerries can be down right nasty! I hear of Jacks being left alone together for years then blood and eyeballs all over.

Part of what makes this breed what it is is that Terrier attitude and personality. If that goes hand in hand with the dog aggression, I'll willingly live with it to get the rest.

Excellent points Karen!

[RealPitBull]

My two (or ten) cents:

1) No legit APBT breeder is breeding "for" aggression.

2) There is no "aggression gene" so it is not something you can locate/test for, then breed away from.

3) Aggression is normal behavior in dogs, period. Dogs fight. It is defensive behavior.

4) Aggression is learned behavior. BUT! I do think the tendency to develope aggression in some breeds is higher than in other breeds. I also think there is a lot we don't know about aggressive behavior, and behavior in general, and how/why personality/temperament traits develop. I am not convinced there is no genetic component to aggressive behavior in dogs - as I always say, there is a reason there are different breeds. Because selective breeding for certain traits has lead to creation of various breeds. If it was just about environment, we'd have one generic dog that we could train to do anything (in theory).

5) Pit Bulls are supposed to be drivey, fiesty, no-nonsense working dogs. I don't want a shell, I want a dog with guts.

6) Pit Bulls are not supposed to be lunatics with bloodlust that go after every dog in their path. Dogs that freak out around other dogs are fearful, in fact, and fearful behavior is not desireable in this breed. But they can be defensive, they can be pushy, they can "pick fights". If I had a problem with that, I'd get another breed.

[loverocksalot]

Ah ha. Mary glad you put point 4.
You said it. And I was trying to say it on the history thread. But could not figure how to word it without saying the wrong thing.
I just came to that conclusion last night after all the History research and the book I am reading.
also Pit Bulls are not the only breed that was once bred for fighting correct?

[RealPitBull]

No, they are not the only breed.

[catstina]

Mary, your post was perfect! Great points!