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Post by tracilg on Jun 19, 2008 15:24:11 GMT -5
I'm going to meet with a trainer tonight, and I'm not sure I'm going to like him.
He uses a system of corrections and positive rewards. When I asked what corrections he used, he said typically through the collar - either a flat collar or a choke or pinch collar when needed. He said his goal is to - without pain - simulate the way a mother dog would correct a puppy for misbehaving.
Now, on the one hand, I do see the need for some correction for certain behaviors. One thing we do with Babe is put a firm, but calming, hand on top of her muzzle when she gets too wild. But I really don't think I like the idea of a choke or pinch collar.
I've heard some people talk about how wonderful pinch collars are - but ugh, they just seem mean to me.
Thoughts?
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 19, 2008 16:04:41 GMT -5
Hey Traci, I'm unabashedly PRO positive reinforcement (food) training, and AGAINST so-called "correction training". Don't buy into the rhetoric - chokes and prongs WORK because they cause PAIN and discomfort. When's the last time you have seen a mother dog put a prong collar on a pup? Even if this theory that a prong mimics a mother dog's teeth were TRUE, wouldn't that JUST apply to PUPS? Most pups never see their dams again after 8 - 12 weeks of age. How does this 'theory' apply to ADULT dogs? Dogs do NOT 'correct' each other by poking each other in the neck with blunt spikes. Prongs can often be 'miracle workers' while the dog is wearing the collar, no doubt. But try removing the collar and see what happens....most training with the prong that I've seen does not include a plan for weaning the dog off the collar. I've also seen high-end obedience trialers using prongs on their dogs - despite LOTS of training, the dog must still wear the collar. Personally, that's not the sort of relationship I want with my dog. Also beware that prong collars can and do agitate dogs, oftentimes increasing aggression, anxiety and stress. I don't have any studies off hand to prove this, but this is based on my research on the prong, as well as my own experiences. As for choke chains, I'll let the experts explain those: www.apdt.co.uk/pdfs/Choke_Chain_leaflet.pdf"Stickied" on this board above are lots of resources you may wish to view to help you choose a trainer wisely. Oh and by the way, when I first started training dogs, I used prongs and choke collars galore - I have lots of experience using the methods that employ those tools as well as have been around 'correction based trainers' for years. There is a reason I moved away from those methods. If I sound a little peeved, it's because I'm tired of these pain-based trainers making up theories and little sayings/slogans to justify what they do to dogs. I would respect them more if they said straight up, "YES, I will be hurting your dog in order to train it, YES there can be fall-out from these methods. And NO, the 'praise' I give after the correction is NOT what the dog is working for - the dog is working to avoid the pain/discomfort of being jerked."
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Post by tracilg on Jun 20, 2008 8:59:32 GMT -5
Ok, I met the guy last night and while I didn't hate him, I didn't really like him either.
I will give him credit that he was really good with Babe, who is often very apprehensive when meeting new people. He just sat in a chair and offered some treats when she came close enough. She did eventually warm up to him, but it took a while.
He did say because Babe is so timid, he would never put a choke or a prong on her - but that doesn't change the fact that he's still predominantly a collar-correction based trainer - although he does say that he doesn't just one system of training and that's that. He says he does what works best for the individual dog he's working with.
While I thought that was good, I still have my reservations. His method of training is to take the dog for the first part of the lesson and teach the dog what he wants it to learn (sit, stay, etc) and then spend the rest of the time working with the owner as the owner works with the dog on the same command.
Overall, there was a mix of pros and cons about him. But when it comes down to it, if I have ANY reservations, I'm not going to put my dog into this person's hands.
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Post by maryellen on Jun 20, 2008 9:31:08 GMT -5
honestly, skip him... what are you looking for in a trainer? is this for personal or for issues she has? have you thought about group training courses instead of private?
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Post by tracilg on Jun 20, 2008 12:48:01 GMT -5
What am I looking for.... Well, with both of my previous dogs (neither a pit bull) I was able to completely and easily train them on my own to an off leash stage.
Babe is, to put it mildly, a challenge. And I'm not sure how much of it is just her own nature - much more energetic and willfull I guess - and how much of it is because this time around I'm trying to train a dog while there are 2 kids and 1 other adult in the house that interact with her and none of them interact with her the same way that I do. I am the only one who consistenly makes her walk nice on the leash instead of pulling, for example.
The issues that I have with her are simple. She has quickly learned basic commands - sit, sit/down, sit/stay, settle, and off are all commands that she knows what they mean. The problem is that she only listens when she wants to and, while I understand that at 10 months, she's still a puppy, I also think she's old enough and smart enough to do what's asked of her.
But, possibly from doing too much research and finding that everyone has a different opinion about it, I am not sure where to go from here to get her to listen and respond to commands.
Now, we've only had her for about a month and a half, and she had NO training before then. So, in many ways I think she's making good progress. But good lord - take her out somewhere and she forgets every command she's ever learned. Or, we allow her a little freedom in the yard and she decides she doesn't want to come when called.
I did sign her up for basic obedience at Petsmart - I know many people don't have good things to say about the training there, I spent some time talking to the folks before deciding and also to people I know that have gone through that class with that trainer. I like that they promote the use of head collars and positive rewards over other methods - and that class starts tomorrow for owners. The dogs start next Saturday.
Now, that class could really wind up being all she needs to get a better mastery of the basics, but I really signed her up for it for the socialization aspect. We don't have dog parks and such here, so that was a good option for supervised socializing with other dogs, as well as with other people. I don't expect to walk out of that class with a dog that does what I ask the first time, every time. But I do think the class will help in some areas.
Overall, I guess after writing this novel, I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Maybe someone to work with me to teach me how best to work with her to get the responses I'm looking for?
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Post by maryellen on Jun 20, 2008 13:49:39 GMT -5
you have had her for a month.. while she has come a long way, its going to take more time for her to be 100% reliable on commands.. she is still a baby, so go easy on her.. if she wont come when called, dont have her off leash. use a 25 foot leash and if you call her and she doesnt listen just happily reel her in ... she also should not be having free roam in your house, she should EARN it.. NILIF is a great tool for any pup/dog, i use it with my crew.. it makes them work for what they want to earn. you can read it here www.k9deb.com its called Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF). you are honestly expecting too much of her too soon, she hasnt had time to adjust to your new house and rules. just do the petsmart group training, and give her time to adjust.. she went from a shelter to a house and needs to adjust. you cant send a child off to college and skip the middle...
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Post by maryellen on Jun 20, 2008 13:50:43 GMT -5
ps- my husband and stepkids do the same too with the dogs, no disipline, no structure.. i am the only one who does structure and disipline so i know what you are going thru.
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Post by tracilg on Jun 20, 2008 14:39:21 GMT -5
Thanks Maryellen. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I have been told before that I might possibly sometimes have *ahem* high expectations of others, so it doesn't surprise me to hear that. I am happy to say that I did find the NILIF info last week and was pleased that we were already doing some of it. Like making her sit to get her leash on - we started doing that because it was the only thing that kept her still enough to get the darn thing on! lol. I did start making her to a sit combined with a short stay for her meals and I have noticed a difference with her for that. I also was thinking this week that since I'm the one that feeds her, it makes sense that I'm the one she listens to the best. So we've started having the others in the house feed her as well - with everyone enforcing the sit/stay before she can eat. I guess I need to work on lowering my expectations without lowering my standards, if that makes sense. In other words, I will continue to expect good behavior from her, but will have to accept that there will be more bad behavior than good initially until she learns. Maybe it will be good for me? My fiancee can only hope it would mean that I would stop thinking that everyone should get up at 6 a.m. on the weekends and start doing stuff just because that's what *I* do.
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Post by maryellen on Jun 20, 2008 16:50:11 GMT -5
yep.. dont worry, we all do that at one time or another.. let her be a pup, and go slow and steady, she has been thru alot of changes, so you dont want to rush anything.. i use nilif for everything. (however rufus can be a dork sometimes ,ask mary she met him and sometimes he forgets his training and he is almost 6..) let her get used to the new house and use nilif, and slowly work with her..
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