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Post by melonie on Aug 2, 2011 18:24:20 GMT -5
Today has been an absolute mentally draining wtf sort of days. I got an urgent call from Judy today while I was at work. She had received a call from Olivers new owner.  He (Jim) is out of town working, and he received a call from his wife (Misty) saying Oliver bit their daughter Savanna (6yrs). Misty and kids were on their way to the clinic. Jim was afraid Misty would do something stupid and go have Oliver put to sleep, and wanted Judy or I to go pick him up until sense could be made of the situation. I left work and drove out to their home, looked around outside for Ollie, knocked on the door etc. No barking! A lot of phone calls later, I entered the house to look for him. No dog. I got in my car and started back into town. Jim called me and told me he found out Ollie was locked in the bathroom. So I went back and got him. I dropped him off at Judy's and went back to work. Between all the phone calls, and Misty stopping by my work to talk to me I've learned what has happened. First off, Savanna is fine, and has two stitches. She is upset that her dog isn't at home. Second, Oliver had a shock collar on when I picked him up. (I left it on the kitchen table) That's why there was no barking, and also most likely why Savanna did not hear a warning when she attempted to play with him while he had a chewie, which resulted in the bite. I found out from Jim the reason he has it on is because he will bolt out of the door whenever it is opened up. So I guess it must be a bark/ and remote? No idea. They do not want to give up Oliver. From everything I've heard from both Jim and Misty, it sounds like there is some resource guarding going on. I also think he is trying to guard 'his' kids as well. He has never displayed aggression towards people except for 3 instances. The first time, one of the kids had a sun burn, the kids uncle went to pick the kid up and must of gotten the sun burn because the kid cried out in pain. This upset Oliver and he started growling at the Uncle until he put the kid down. The other time Jim and the boys and Oliver were playing on the bed and Savanna joined in and he snapped at her. I do not know what all was involved here though he did have his shock collar on.. then the third is today. I talked to Misty about getting together for some training. I am giving them my spare crate to put Oliver in for his treats. I explained resource guarding and how we can over come it. I explained NILF again as well. I also talked about the collar. I hope to see it gone. I'm gathering up links to resources on behavior, training etc. to send to Misty. Jim will be home sometime next week, that's when they'll pick up Oliver. I am going to try and work with him one on one tomorrow and Thursday. If I don't go out of town Saturday, then I will work with him then as well. I am concerned. I don't want to see this dog put down because of human error and lack of training. (the human and canine) I hope that the plan I have in mind is the right path. So many things are racing through my mind! Also, Jim asked where we got the idea that Oliver was a pit bull / mix. I told him the original vet in New Orleans pegged him as such. I told Jim that I have no idea what he truly is. What is the forums opinion on the hunk? He is big, about 80-90 pounds, he is not as 'graceful' as Winston, Cleveland, Zeke. He seems 'stiffer' if that makes sense? We've just always called him a pit mix.   |
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Post by maryellen on Aug 2, 2011 19:30:18 GMT -5
honestly if there were 3 instances with him showing inappropriate behavior he shouldnt have been adopted out nor to a home with children . its possible he is a bulldog mix and not a pit bull.
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Post by melonie on Aug 2, 2011 20:10:03 GMT -5
He had never shown any signs before he was adopted, not even any DA issues. His original home found him at about 11 weeks, and kept him until he was a year old. I know that family and recently talked to the dad and let him know that Ollie was in a home etc. The kids used to come out to the shelter to play with him as well. They never expressed any worry about aggression. He came to us because he spent most of his time in a kennel, during the summer months it wasn't so bad because someone was home, but once school started it became a big issue.
Judy had him for about a year, and he was one dog that we could put in a yard with another dog. He didn't show signs of toy guarding, but food was never allowed out of common sense.
My first thought was he either couldn't go back into a home, or be put down. Now that I know more, I am hesitant to put him down for something I feel is more human error than canine aggression.
If either Judy or I had any clue he would bite someone, he would not have left her care. The reputation of the pit bull around here can not afford to have a naughty pit bull at large. I would not know how to deal with the fact of something tragic happening to someone because of one of our dogs. I'd probably eat myself up with guilt trying to figure out where I effed up.
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Post by maryellen on Aug 2, 2011 20:12:18 GMT -5
is it possible the shock collar was setting him off? were the 2 incidents in the new home only? besides the one with the uncle, did he ever show any signs of aggression?
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Post by Dave on Aug 2, 2011 20:44:51 GMT -5
FWIW, here's my opinion. I'm blunt, don't take it personally.
It doesn't matter what mix he is.
"He has never displayed aggression towards people except for 3 instances." That right there is a red flag, don't ignore it. If you want to save this dog's life and keep the children in that home safe, do not return Oliver to that family. It's obvious that he's been mishandled. You know of three incidents of aggression, there may have been more. Jim, the owner, has already released the dog to you. Keep him. A dog with a bite history is a liability, and it doesn't matter the details, he bit. If he bites again, it may very well be more than two stitches.
If you decide to rehome this dog, it better be with someone who can handle resource guarding, and protective behavior. Insist on a dog trainer. No children in the family. Through no fault of yours or Judy's, you now have a difficult dog to place, and you'd better be truthful to the next owner about his history.
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Post by michele5611 on Aug 2, 2011 20:54:18 GMT -5
Have to agree with Dave. First thing that struck me was that this was the third incident, also the fact that they were using a shock collar. I would not return him to the previous owners. Sorry melonie.
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Post by catstina on Aug 2, 2011 20:55:58 GMT -5
I agree with Michele and Dave
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Post by suziriot on Aug 2, 2011 21:16:19 GMT -5
I'm so sorry Melonie. What a crappy situation. I do agree with Michele and Dave. I know you want what's best for Oliver, and I don't think that this family has turned out to be a good fit. In addition to the shock collar, there may have been even more negative conditioning that might have contributed to his guarding and biting.  |
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Post by tank on Aug 2, 2011 21:39:59 GMT -5
I agree that he shouldn't be returned to this family. It obviously isn't the place for him especially if he is guarding and showing agressive behavior because of it and they didn't contact either you or a trainer right away. Letting something like that go until a child needs to go to the hospital (even if it is just 2 stiches) is really irresponsible both as a pet owner and a parent.
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Post by melonie on Aug 2, 2011 22:08:50 GMT -5
is it possible the shock collar was setting him off? were the 2 incidents in the new home only? besides the one with the uncle, did he ever show any signs of aggression? The three instances are: 1. Growling at the uncle. This happened when he picked up one of the kids who had a bad sunburn. The child cried out in pain and Oliver growled until the child was put back down. 2. Snapping at Savanna during playtime w/ the dad and other boys. 3. Biting Savanna. Misty said she startled him while he was chewing on a rawhide. The shock collar.. He wore it 24/7. He used to be a barker, but didn't even attempt to bark at me, or when I knocked on the door etc. I just figure if he hadn't had to wear it he may have let off a warning growl before he actually bit.  I am pretty sure they did not use positive reinforcement, but he is not hand shy at all. I gave them a lot of literature on NILF, and positive reinforcement., and breed information. I talked to Misty about how to reinforce the behavior you want from the dog. They have chickens and were worried he would try to get into the coop they built. I showed them how to praise and treat him when he was calm near the coop. When he pulled the leash, barked, or got too excited, we removed him and said no chickens. They have not had an issue of him pestering the chickens. I also taught the kids how to approach any dog that they knew or didn't know, but Savanna was not there. One of the smaller boys was shy and a bit afraid of him at first. When he went to pet him he came at him with his hand held high above his head and tried to reach over and pet the top of his head. I showed him how to approach and scratch under the chin. I explained how the other way scares dogs etc. I didn't just let Oliver go blindly to the family because I adore the dog. He's the dog that will try and sit on his head when you tell him to sit. He's always been fun, goofy, and easy going. I think this is why I am so upset, and having a hard time wrapping my brain around it. Judy is at work this evening, so I will talk to her tomorrow. I will seriously think about everyone's input. I'm leaning towards keeping him with Judy. My daughter and her baby are moving in a couple of weeks, so I could bring him into my home, just not sure if I could handle these three all at once and still have any semblance of sanity left. |
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Post by adoptapitbull on Aug 3, 2011 6:28:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure he should go back there, either.
It's never OK for a dog to bite a child, however I think a lot of the responsibility for the bite should be placed on the parents. If the mom said the little girl was bit because she startled him (probably grabbed for the rawhide), then it's the mom's responsibility to supervise her child and say that it is not OK to do that to a dog. It's obvious that the parents are not dog savvy people, and incidents like these happen with uneducated dog parents.
I wouldn't label him as human aggressive, either. I think the dog was pushed into situations that made him react badly.
I would also hesitate to bring him home with your guys. Having 3 males in a home can set off a whole new dynamic. I don't think he's a Pit mix either, rather an AmBull. My cousin has an AmBull who looks almost identical to Oliver. Whatever he is, it's still going to be tough with 3 male Bully breeds in the home. I would only do it with a C&R arrangement just to be sure.
Don't blame yourself for this. Accidents happen and I don't think you have placed a HA dog with a family. I think it just wasn't a good fit. I can tell you right now that Phyllis would NOT be a good dog for children because she gets nervous if you try to grab her collar. She's not a "bad dog" for it and neither is Oliver.
Let us know what Judy says...
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Post by loverocksalot on Aug 3, 2011 7:24:42 GMT -5
I agree he should not go back to them. Possibly they can assist in finding an appropriate rescue program. Making calls etc. I once took in a doberman from the neighborhood I had planned to be our dog. But after 2 months she began to show some subtle resource guarding mostly to my youngest son. Including guarding me. She also went nuts on visitors when they would get up to leave. Having a 10 yr old and a 15 year old I could not trust her behavior of showing teeth or subtle growling because I gave affection to the kids. or because some long hair teen she does not like gets bitten. She only snapped at people except for my husband who accidentally got bit when we were in an intro for training and she would not stop barking. He tried to cover her mouth and his hand went in her mouth. She had bitten the other doberman she lived with prior thats why we got her. Before that she lived with an old man. She was a constant barker and had big time anxiety issues. I worked hard at training her. After it getting worse, I spent weeks trying to find a rescue. Finally found one that helped me with what to do with her. Then one day I called in desperation and they had an opening had to take her the next day. This was a major doberman rescue that keeps the dogs on site with trainers and private runs. I let them know everything about her. She eventually went to a doberman experienced home. I told them the dog should live with one person or a couple never intending to have children and rarely have visitors. With a lot of property where she could free run. It was one of the hardest things I ever did. But obviously meant to be this poor dogs 5th home (found out later someone took her for 2 weeks before us) hopefully was her final home and I believe it was. We were just the foster that made the difference in her life.
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Post by lovemybully76 on Aug 3, 2011 8:49:53 GMT -5
Sorry your going through this Melonie. No matter what the reasons Oliver did what he did he should probably not go back to the family IMO. It's sounds like you educated them well when they adopted him, but mabey their just not the right family for him. Hope everything works out.
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Post by fureverywhere on Aug 3, 2011 9:22:07 GMT -5
Imho, as a Mom and seeing a beautiful dog who looks like a pumped up Ophie...really, I'm sure he has potential to be a great guy...in a home with a very experienced, patient, adult and definitely no children and no shock collar.
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Post by maryellen on Aug 3, 2011 11:29:34 GMT -5
sorry i stand by my first comment, he shouldnt have been adopted out . after the first incident he should have been taken back so that the other 2 incidents wouldnt have happened. and i personally feel he shouldnt be adopted to them or anyone else but thats just me
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Post by RealPitBull on Aug 3, 2011 11:53:08 GMT -5
Hi Melonie, I am really sorry you are going through this, and sorry for Oliver, too. Not to mention Savannah who was injured and is now going to have to deal with possibly losing her dog. My two cents is this is not a dog that should ever go to a home with children. Chances are, the next time he bites will be worse than the last 3 - he's bitten a child hard enough to require stitches. That's of real concern, to me. Add to this scenario, he's been wearing a shock collar which is a device notorious for causing escalating aggression. It worries me that he's been wearing this, around children, may associate the shock with kids, and already has multiple instances of showing aggression. This doesn't seem to be aggression specifically related to resource guarding, either. He seems to have issues with kids in general. I can almost guarentee there will be another instance of aggression, probably worse. This family would need SERIOUS, professional in-home training/behavioral modification is undertaken and to be uber-dilligent - frankly, evenso, this isn't a situation I'd leave Oliver in. If he's placed in another home - which personally I wouldn't recommend - it'd have to be a childless home. JMO.  |
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Post by melonie on Aug 3, 2011 13:53:32 GMT -5
This evening I will talk to Judy. Ultimately it is up to her. but she will listen and take my advise seriously.
I dont want Ollie to go back, and I Will try to find the best way to tell the family.
As far as never should have been adopted out to begin with... If he had shown signs of aggression he would not have left Judy to begin with. All of the issues have been with this family.
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Post by Dave on Aug 3, 2011 14:47:38 GMT -5
This evening I will talk to Judy. Ultimately it is up to her. but she will listen and take my advise seriously. I dont want Ollie to go back, and I Will try to find the best way to tell the family. As far as never should have been adopted out to begin with... If he had shown signs of aggression he would not have left Judy to begin with. All of the issues have been with this family. I'm sure you two will do the right thing for everyone involved. Just don't try and save the day by bringing him home. Remember that you personally can't save them all. That's the unfortunate truth. Good luck. |
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Post by melonie on Aug 3, 2011 16:55:25 GMT -5
This evening I will talk to Judy. Ultimately it is up to her. but she will listen and take my advise seriously. I dont want Ollie to go back, and I Will try to find the best way to tell the family. As far as never should have been adopted out to begin with... If he had shown signs of aggression he would not have left Judy to begin with. All of the issues have been with this family. I'm sure you two will do the right thing for everyone involved. Just don't try and save the day by bringing him home. Remember that you personally can't save them all. That's the unfortunate truth. Good luck. Right now I don't have the energy to bring him home. It would be a lot of management and possible crate rotate even though he knows both Rhett and Winston. Rhett's issues are enough for me right now to deal with 24/7. That said I will have to put in time with Ollie. |
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Post by melonie on Aug 3, 2011 17:16:59 GMT -5
Already a possible home for Ollie. I called Chuck, the guy who adopted Scarlett and told him what was going on. He has a friend that Has an elderbull, and has expressed interest in finding another dog. He has no children, no wife. Just him and the dog. Could be a good place for him. At any rate, Chuck will help me find Oliver a place to call home.
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